living in china

Re: Re: Re: living in china

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
i agree with the contacts thing, if you show up with no clue you are a tourist trap and likely to be had and your money taken. look at the exchange rate. depending on where you go, you can live for less.you get about 8 yuan for every american dollar. stay away from the places that attract a lot of foriegners, because they will likely charge you like 20 yuan for a can of soda where if you go to another place it might be 2. that is all i have to say, and bring american condoms. :o

I’m talking about the condom comment. so you’re saying we have short ****s?

Re: Re: Re: Re: living in china

Originally posted by Shaolin Dude
I’m talking about the condom comment. so you’re saying we have short ****s?

He could also be saying that Chinese condoms are of poor quality. Or that they use inferior latex that might give you a rash. Or they might not be lubricated.

It could have meant any number of things.

Originally posted by Meat Shake
Actually… 1 year should be enough for him to pick up quite a bit. …

“Quite a bit” is a loooooong way from fluent.

First of all, the language is completely unrelated to any western toungue so in the beggining you have nothing to work with. There are no mental associations you can make to words you already know.

Second, most people need at least a year or so to just be capable of differentiating and pronouncing the 4 tones.

It is very impressive how well many foreigners can get by after just a year or so but I know people who have been here for several and been studying too and still can not sit down and watch a Chinese movie/TV program or be able to catch more than maybe 1/3 of the conversation that happens between me and my GF. She speaks quickly and uses a lot of slang, pop-cultural references etc.

Then you move on the the real reason for learning the language.. .. to communicate with Shifu. Now the kind of language involved in real in depth training is far more subtle and nuanced than “move your foot”, “turn to the right” and “breath in …”. Most of THAT kind of thing can be handles with just gestures and the barest amount of pidgeon Chiense/English. Not everyone teaches the same but my own Shifu anywasy likes to use Chinese proverbs, allusions to Chinese literature and mythology and sometimes the etymology of a specific Chinese character. Never mind the subtle nuances of all the descriptive adjectives for giving you direction on the quality of motion as opposed to simply where to put your hand.

So yes, you can learn a hell of a lot in a year and I said the first time you could get quite conversational but FLUENCY is something I myself only have started claiming in the past year after studying Chinese at SF State for 4 years and then going to China and enrolling in a language program for another year and THEN continuing to live in China, and dating a Chinese girl who refuses to speak English with me for another 3 years beyong that.

Now just less than a year ago I started saying I was fluent. . . .and I STILL occasionally have problems.

Shaolin Dude, are you paranoid?

A little over defensive on the size front perhaps? :smiley: :wink:

My teacher says learning the language is “as easy as some small plates on a table” (apparently the chinese equivalent of “a piece of cake”), once you get the hang of the pronunciation and the different nuances. But having only had one lesson, I’m very daunted by the alien nature of the language - I’ve got a very good memory but its taken me three days to remember how to say “good morning” properly, because the words are so different to anything i’m used to, and the tone adds another dimension. This year, i’ll try to focus on becoming proficient with the basic sounds so i’ll be able to learn a lot when i’m in china.

Omarthefish, thanks for your kind offer of helping me get settled in Xian - I may take you up on it in the future if i decide to go there. like i said though, i’m still in the advance planning stages, and might go to beijing anyway. wherever i go, though i intend to seriously apply myself to tai chi and chi gung, so a good teacher would be a huge plus.

It’s as easy as anything else you are willing to do really poorly for a while. I didn’t mean to make it sound overly daunting. I just wanted to emphasise the difference bewteen being able to commuicate and being truly “fluent”.

Beijing is great too. It’s much easier to acclimate socially there. There is a big ex-pat community and there are plenty of western style bars and discos for when you get tired of “going native”. :wink:

You don’t have the choice with language

If you’re immersed, it’s sink or swim. I find it usually takes me a week or two before my Chinese language babblefish kicks into gear. When you’re backed into a corner linguistically, you either go mute or adapt. I daresay a year will be a great experience - fluency may not be acheived in that time, but functionality will have to be.

Re: Re: Re: Re: living in china

Originally posted by Shaolin Dude
I’m talking about the condom comment. so you’re saying we have short ****s?

no im saying they are of poor quality. every chinese guy i know told me to bring my own cause they chinese ones will break or alreayd used.

edit*

im not implying anything else.

One thing that I have not seen mentioned is what do you think your own level is, and what is it that you or anyone wanting to travel to china to train would hope to accomplish.

If your basics are not very good, then most of your time will be spent leaning them or relearning them. The assumptions being that the best couches / teachers are in China maybe true in one sense for the higher levels of most CMA, but if you skill is not even up to the basic requirements you maybe be learning something that you could have learned at home from a local teacher.

If you can it might be a good idea to find a local teacher with connections to his teacher in china. It also might be a good time to have some one eveluate your skill level and adivse you on what to work on before you get there.What is your tolerance for hard work and pain, you will be tested :cool::wink:

Haveing said this i would say, make the trip, the experince alone would make the trip worth it. :wink:

Japanese condoms are generally too small.

Guess that means only one thing…

[shuffles]

[looks down at hyoooooge feet]

Yep, that’s right! Japanese men generally have small ****s.

Back to the programme now please!

Bamboo Leaf just posted an excellent post about expectations.

And on the condom issue…

Durex brand condoms are widely available here in China. Trojans are less common but I have seen them around. So there’s no real need for that. China is very serious about population controll. The only reason to bring your own is because you’re afraid you won’t know how to ask for them in the local drugstore. They are still kep behind the counter in most cities.

Originally posted by omarthefish
[B]$9500 is plenty including airfare. Here in Xi’an it has the buying power of about 8 times that. The lifestyle would be the equivalent of having a 75k/year job. I live an upper middle class lifestyle on about $5000/year. I support my GF and we live in a 3 bedroom apt. (1 bedroom and we both have our own private rooms/studies in addition to the living room)

In Bejing or Shanghai your $9500 could probably let you live the same way I do in Xi’an on my $5000.

I could hook you up with some really seriously good taijiquan in Xi’an but he doesn’t speak English so who knows. Others may have different views on what that’s like. I don’t know. I would only be around to help translate on weekends. Jarek’s site is a good source. There is also some very high level Chen in town I could introduce you to and I know the Chen guy has a fair number of bi-lingual students so the language issue is not as big as with my own teacher.

Important questions:

How old are you?
Do you have a college degree?

If your at least in your mid 20’s then it will be easy to secure a job teaching English. You have the money but you don’t have a visa. Your choices are to enroll in a foreign language program ( I reccomend it) or to teach English. A degree will give you signifigantly better bargaining power for your contract. A tourist visa is only a month from the US but for some strange reason in Hong Kong you can get one that is good for 6 months. I still think it is better to hook up as a student if you can afford it (annual tuition around here runs about $1800) and then maybe teach a bit on the side for extra cash…or be a teacher. The social network is not to be underestimated.

Either one of these options will do a few things for you.

-an instant network of “friends” to help you find your way around when you can’t really speak the language.
-housing
-sanitary food.
-a VISA!!!
-a bit of structure to your day. The value of this is not to be underestimated. The culture shock can be rough enough as it is. Having something to do helps a LOT.

Lot’s of people reccomend against studying the language at a school but there is a HUGE difference between the getting by Chinese you learn on the street and the proper Chinese you can learn at school. It’s not like you don’t get to practice on the street and in cheap bars if you go the school route. But to each his own.

I second the reccomendation for Jareks site. I have been here about 5 years. He’s been doing it apparently for twice that. I can definately show you some pretty incredible Yang style though. The Chen in Xi’an I know by reputation only. I have met a couple people who found their Chen teacher here in Xi’an actually through Jarek. [/B]

This is really dangerous advice!!! As foreigners , particulary for the first time in China, and being that even our embassies advise us how teaching contracts are tentative, volitile in conditional forthcoming from employers / schools, and when they do dodge or not come through on various conditions, foreigners have no cover what-so-ever. I have been in touch with BL since her banning, and this woman had her school not process her visa extension for whatever reason , not uncommon, and so her foreign experts card revoked and is daily battling to keep herself alive while negotiating with embassies , on both sides to little avail, just to get out of the country.

Besides, work hours in China are very different to the west, often having you work until 9:30 pm , up to 14 days in row, with four days offf, 2 - 3 of which you need to recover. So when are you really training anyway?? And that’s before we even get to the food quality, by which you can expect to sick or food poisoned regularly for your first 6 mths or so.

A tourist visa ( L visa ) is a much safer bet as it’s only you and the embassy and doesn’t rely on anything someone else may or may not do.

It is, I hear, despite the difficulties you can expect to encounter, a trip worth taking. Good luck and plan well. You can find information at any emassy website or at www.lonelyplanet.com

Ps: if you don’t have alot of language , an english > chinese electronic dictionary will be your closest friend.

Pps : the condoms ( bl tells me ) are just fine

oh and beijing/ shaghai etc are extremely expensive compared to most of the country. the ****her out from the city you go the cheaper it is, just be sure there’ll be a shifu available or you have language to ask for one and understand the reply. Henan is dirty, but in dengfeng , like at Dechengs’ school, you can bargain your way to 600rmb per week with accom and training. local meals between 5- 30 rmb .

Originally posted by omarthefish
[B]
If your at least in your mid 20’s then it will be easy to secure a job teaching English. You have the money but you don’t have a visa. Your choices are to enroll in a foreign language program ( I reccomend it) or to teach English. A degree will give you signifigantly better bargaining power for your contract. A tourist visa is only a month from the US but for some strange reason in Hong Kong you can get one that is good for 6 months. I still think it is better to hook up as a student if you can afford it (annual tuition around here runs about $1800) and then maybe teach a bit on the side for extra cash…or be a teacher. The social network is not to be underestimated.

Either one of these options will do a few things for you.

-an instant network of “friends” to help you find your way around when you can’t really speak the language.
-housing
-sanitary food.
-a VISA!!!
-a bit of structure to your day. The value of this is not to be underestimated. The culture shock can be rough enough as it is. Having something to do helps a LOT.

[/B]

It’s really good to hear somebody living in China validating my own thoughts regarding the advantages of teaching English to give me the opportunity to go to China. I am going to be there in less than six months (I expect around early March or late February if all goes well) and for a while, I have been working from incomplete information and a handfull of conjecture. In fact, factfinding about China was my initial reason for joining the forum! :smiley: If you can share any other tips for English teachers in China (particularly if you have any contacts from Hangzhou) let me know.

Funny story, I was talking to my Sifu last night about my plans to go to China and it turns out that his parents were from Hangzhou originally. I wouldn’t have ever known if I haden’t decided months ago that I wanted to go to Zhejiang province!

(her foreign experts card revoked and is daily battling to keep herself alive while negotiating with embassies , on both sides to little avail, just to get out of the country.)

I was under the impression that the card would only allow one to stay longer then a normal visa. How is BL being prevented from leaving?

Which parts of the advice would you consider dangerous? And are you basing this on persobal experience or just hearsay? Anyways I put a lot up there but for simplicities sake:

-get a job or enroll as a student.
-get a 6 month tourist visa through Hong Kong.
-consider Xi’an instead of Beijing
-don’t bother bringing you own condoms.

The rest of my post was just reasons why.

Which piece of advice is “dangerous”? :confused:

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
Besides, work hours in China are very different to the west, often having you work until 9:30 pm , up to 14 days in row, with four days offf, 2 - 3 of which you need to recover. So when are you really training anyway?? And that’s before we even get to the food quality, by which you can expect to sick or food poisoned regularly for your first 6 mths or so.

2 Things on this.

  1. That’s exactly why you need to be carefull in your contract. But realistically you are NOT a Chinese citezen. You are a “lao wai”. You will get paid twice as much for half the time as any locals. But they often WILL try to take advantage. But as you said, the contracts are pretty weak so what’s the big deal? Just make sure your getting paid month by month and don’t sign anything where they give you some sort of stipend and then a lump sum upon completion of the contract. That way, the most you can possibly lose is a months pay or about $400 or so. If you don’t like the schedule…leave.

I am REALLY curious what the hell BL has gotten herself into because I can’t concieve of a way to get trapped there even on purpose. The punishment for being there without a Visa/redidence pemit is deportation…you get sent home. And what is a “foreign expert card” do you mean the green card/residence permit?

Anyways, a school not renewing your visa is not uncommon. It happened to me too. They lied about having authority to di it. They said I would have to leave the country and come back in again but they couldn’t do it form inside the country. Solution? I left the school and went to a public school with some clout. They pay was less but they handled all the visa issues and I have been with them ever since.

You also raised the issue of time for training. Well that’s another thing you can have in your contract. The standard workload for foreign teachers is about 15-20 40 minute class hours/week for middle school and only about 10-15 for colleges or private schools. That means you will have about a 20-25 hour work week. Write it into your contract. The maximum number or classes you are willing to do. If they tell you to do more you just ignore them. If they delay your pay so much as a day from what’s stated in the contract, don’t show up for work again untill they pay you. If they try to hold your passport as collateral to make sure you finish your contract, inform them that your passport is property of the United States Government and holding it is in violation of both Chinese and American law and get on the phone to the embassy immediately. It’s a good idea to keep a photocopy of your visa so you have the numer to give the folks at the embassy. They take that stuff vERY seriously.

Sanitation.

While it is true that you will mostly likely get sick a lot for the first several months being a student or teacher at a school can save you from the majority of that. School cafeterias are vastly more sanitary than pretty much anywhere else in China except for 4 and 5 star hotels. It’s the restaurants, re-bottled water and especially the street food that gives you the runs.

Lastly,

"600rmb per week with accom and training. local meals between 5- 30 rm…is still very expensive by local standards unless you mean 5-30 rmb/week for meals. That’s pretty good. But they schools will always rip you off on lodging so it’s best to rent an apartment and live off campus as early as you can. The 600 rmb/week you pay at the school will get you a 1-2 bedroom flat for a MONTH off campus. I pay 800rmb/month for a 3 bedroom apartment with a bath and real hot water in the bathroom not one of those wall mounted things that heats the water as it comes out while you hose youself down in the middle of room standing next to one of those toliets that you squat over.

The main thing to watch out for is basically just your visa. Never trust anyone who says “no problem”. If anything that was promised on tuesday is not there on tuesday don’t wait for wednsday to leave. “No Problem” is a polite Chinese expressiong for “Your ****ed and we don’t give a ****.”

:wink:

Death by Sex

omarthefish said:

And on the condom issue…

Durex brand condoms are widely available here in China. Trojans are less common but I have seen them around. So there’s no real need for that. China is very serious about population controll. The only reason to bring your own is because you’re afraid you won’t know how to ask for them in the local drugstore"

Dont be silly Omar, you’re gonna get someone killed and i have to speak up here bc a friend just tested postive for HIV (went to HK for a private test, 600 hk dollars).

YOU CAN’T TRUST THE CONDOMS IN CHINA.

  1. IN CHINA ALMOST EVERYTHING HAS IT’S FAKE VERSION.
    There are lots of fake “Brand name” condoms.
    You have your fake trojans, fake “made in america” or whatever fake everything.. you name it , there’s a fake version, fake right down to the fake seal of authenticity.
    One store boss said to me the real ones (package) were “heavier” that’s how you could tell if you wanted to risk it.

  2. There is no accountability. If it’s fake there is no proof and no one to complain to. Not only are there fake versions, the versions “real” are of poor quality. I heard one revealing interview in which the manufacturers said of the poor test performance “So what? The worst that can happen is some unwanted pregancy!”
    The only person gonna get punished from bad condoms is the user not the seller in China.

  3. The storage conditions ruin the condoms even if they are good and genuine. I see them on sale in pharmacies under the glass counter in the hot summer and few stores have air-con. and if it’s winter, you can think that maybe it was there in the 90 degree in the summer.

It’s hilarious… I saw a TV Doc about condoms sold in dispensers on campus in Shanghai. They showed the dispenser. It was sort of chinese ground-breaking. But the hilarious part was they showed the dispensers on the walls in the 90 degree heat in the wc’ and they didn’t even comment on that part of it.

  1. They ARE smaller. Proof: Read Jan Wong’s “Red China Blues”. The mm average size manuf for the asian market is different.
    also the mm size manuf for the African market is larger.
    Like the man says it’s not racist it’s reality.

You don’t need to read to find that out. You find that out at the wrong moment. I had a hilarious (in retrospect) incident with my GF in a HK Hotel. (You can trust purchasing condoms in HK in 7-11’s etc.). I struggled blue in the face for 10 min trying to get a chinese brand on (It was not only small, but short) , my g/f eventually bursting into gales of laughter and the moment was ruined… :frowning: eventually ended up stalking the streets at 2:00 am looking for a 7-11). It was funny in retrospect..haha. :frowning:

  1. HIV is rampant in some places in Chian. ESPECIALLY HENAN and the surrounding provinces because they had a blood scandel there for quite a while. Seems they gave hiv to thousands or millions with tainted blood.
    Because of corruption.. gee imagine that… in china , even.
    Probably still hapening.
    ..

    In china money is money, and money is everything, if you bring back a damaged dvd, the boss wil put it back on the shelf because the important thing is to sell it.
    Same with condoms.

Get it through your heads newbies.. china is still third world and china is corrupt and you need 2 years experience to realize what “corrupt” means in a totalitarian world.
You haven’t got any street smarts stay in san fran.

you want to criticize my negative in what i say, then what the heck do i care if you end up dead like my friend soon will be.

And guys.. My friend made a common mistake…

He said "I’m not goona buy any in HK because i’m gonna be a good boy from now on. ..
and so he ends up getting the hots and taking a chance on the chinese condoms.
It’s too much temptation guys, it always is, when Miss Hottie is pinning to jump your bones your resolve usually turns to water (unless you a conservative guy like Russbo. :wink: )

So no matter you plan for it or not always pick up a few pack cartons or half a suitcase full in HK or good old USA.
In this day of Death by Sex, “keep it in your pants” is generally good advice, but temptation’s a bittch or a beast and you get a lot of it when you leave your old usa nest.

If you wannta use the Chines condoms no skin off my nose, too many bobble-head foreigner in China anyway, suggest you all stay back home. You’re ruining it for me.

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
[B](her foreign experts card revoked and is daily battling to keep herself alive while negotiating with embassies , on both sides to little avail, just to get out of the country.)

I was under the impression that the card would only allow one to stay longer then a normal visa. How is BL being prevented from leaving? [/B]

the foreign experts card is what allows you to travel from province to province.

Originally posted by omarthefish
[B]Which parts of the advice would you consider dangerous? And are you basing this on persobal experience or just hearsay? Anyways I put a lot up there but for simplicities sake:

-get a job or enroll as a student.
-get a 6 month tourist visa through Hong Kong.
-consider Xi’an instead of Beijing
-don’t bother bringing you own condoms.

The rest of my post was just reasons why.

Which piece of advice is “dangerous”? :confused:

2 Things on this.

  1. That’s exactly why you need to be carefull in your contract. But realistically you are NOT a Chinese citezen. You are a “lao wai”. You will get paid twice as much for half the time as any locals. But they often WILL try to take advantage. But as you said, the contracts are pretty weak so what’s the big deal? Just make sure your getting paid month by month and don’t sign anything where they give you some sort of stipend and then a lump sum upon completion of the contract. That way, the most you can possibly lose is a months pay or about $400 or so. If you don’t like the schedule…leave.

I am REALLY curious what the hell BL has gotten herself into because I can’t concieve of a way to get trapped there even on purpose. The punishment for being there without a Visa/redidence pemit is deportation…you get sent home. And what is a “foreign expert card” do you mean the green card/residence permit?

Anyways, a school not renewing your visa is not uncommon. It happened to me too. They lied about having authority to di it. They said I would have to leave the country and come back in again but they couldn’t do it form inside the country. Solution? I left the school and went to a public school with some clout. They pay was less but they handled all the visa issues and I have been with them ever since.

You also raised the issue of time for training. Well that’s another thing you can have in your contract. The standard workload for foreign teachers is about 15-20 40 minute class hours/week for middle school and only about 10-15 for colleges or private schools. That means you will have about a 20-25 hour work week. Write it into your contract. The maximum number or classes you are willing to do. If they tell you to do more you just ignore them. If they delay your pay so much as a day from what’s stated in the contract, don’t show up for work again untill they pay you. If they try to hold your passport as collateral to make sure you finish your contract, inform them that your passport is property of the United States Government and holding it is in violation of both Chinese and American law and get on the phone to the embassy immediately. It’s a good idea to keep a photocopy of your visa so you have the numer to give the folks at the embassy. They take that stuff vERY seriously.

Sanitation.

While it is true that you will mostly likely get sick a lot for the first several months being a student or teacher at a school can save you from the majority of that. School cafeterias are vastly more sanitary than pretty much anywhere else in China except for 4 and 5 star hotels. It’s the restaurants, re-bottled water and especially the street food that gives you the runs.

Lastly,

"600rmb per week with accom and training. local meals between 5- 30 rm…is still very expensive by local standards unless you mean 5-30 rmb/week for meals. That’s pretty good. But they schools will always rip you off on lodging so it’s best to rent an apartment and live off campus as early as you can. The 600 rmb/week you pay at the school will get you a 1-2 bedroom flat for a MONTH off campus. I pay 800rmb/month for a 3 bedroom apartment with a bath and real hot water in the bathroom not one of those wall mounted things that heats the water as it comes out while you hose youself down in the middle of room standing next to one of those toliets that you squat over.

The main thing to watch out for is basically just your visa. Never trust anyone who says “no problem”. If anything that was promised on tuesday is not there on tuesday don’t wait for wednsday to leave. “No Problem” is a polite Chinese expressiong for “Your ****ed and we don’t give a ****.”

:wink: [/B]

actually BL was making up to y20 00 : your 4 000 in month, but any contract that doesn’t get fulfilled , is potentially dangerous. Ppl plan their survival around things!

Chinese schools will tell you just about anything to get ttheir and you’ll never know they were fullofit until you get there.

When the food is sickening and theres no water / power/ wage nor other promise kept, the work china scene is a distasterous b*tch!!

Ps: most contract breaches wil leave you Us $500 out of pocket and without a visa or hope to renew!!

If BL could’ve gone to JAIL and been deported , she’d be home now. If you don’t speak local tongue or look like you have more $$ than them, they don’t want to talk to you.

On top of work hours ( usually 25 50 minute teaching hours, there are papers to mark, lessons to prepare and tests to compile and mark. I know for a fact BL was waking at 4 am, sleeping anywhere to 12 :30 and still didn’t get in as much training as she’d hoped.

Alot of folks ( inlcuding my sister ) , go to teach and don’t even see out a month. the woman’s doing okay. But but unless you’re a hard nose pr*ck yourself and prepared to suffer , prepare to do China , real style. and have a return fare, some language and some penalty fees in kitty.

Good luck and enjoy your experience. just know it’s no luxury cruise!!

Gee, Ego, you sure do know a lot about BL.:wink:

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
the foreign experts card is what allows you to travel from province to province.

:confused:

There’s no travel restrictions in China.

The locals have to register their place of residence but if you want to go to another province as a foreigner or as a tourist if you are a local…you just get on a train and go.