Liu He Ba Fa--Water style boxing???

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I clicked on the banner ad above and it took me to this place:

http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/tclh001.html

Water boxing?? It says it’s “…one of the highest forms of internal martial arts…” From the description it sounds more like yoga. Anyone know anything about this supposed “water style boxing”?

<TABLE BORDER=“3” CELLSPACING=“1” CELLPADDING=“1”><TR><TD><form><INPUT TYPE=“button” VALUE=" Art Tsai " onClick=“parent.location=‘http://people.we.mediaone.net/arttsai/home.html’”></TD></TR></table></form><HR Width=“97%”>“You fight like you train.” --Motto, USN Fighter Weapon School (TOPGUN)

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www.liuhopafa.com

You may take my life, but you will never take my Freedom

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water boxing is a legitimate style. Wai Lun Choi in Chicage is the only person I’ve known who taught it, but the man is a ferocious fighter, and I have no doubts as to the styles usefulness.

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water boxing is one of the jewels of china, it is a beautiful style and when used correctly can be very powerful.
They have a form that called up from the ground which is very graceful when perfromed slow but very powerful when executed rapidly like that of tai chi. The practioner pulls the chi from the ground and encircles it and depenses it at will against their opponents.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

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ahh…

Thanks. Now I see the chinese name, I remember hearing about the style. How does it became known as the “water boxing” here though…?

<TABLE BORDER=“3” CELLSPACING=“1” CELLPADDING=“1”><TR><TD><form><INPUT TYPE=“button” VALUE=" Art Tsai " onClick=“parent.location=‘http://people.we.mediaone.net/arttsai/home.html’”></TD></TR></table></form><HR Width=“97%”>“You fight like you train.” --Motto, USN Fighter Weapon School (TOPGUN)

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ONE FORM ORIGINALLY

did this style only have one form?

i know a teacher here that teaches this style.

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

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Hi, guys…

>water boxing is one of the jewels of china, it is a beautiful style and when used correctly can be very powerful.<

  True enough.

>They have a form that called up from the ground which is very graceful when perfromed slow but very powerful when executed rapidly like that of tai chi. The practioner pulls the chi from the ground and encircles it and depenses it at will against their opponents.<

>EARTH DRAGON

 I have no idea where you're going here. You need to realize that the forms do nothing, but teach the techniques, and essential, proper, mechanics. It's up to the individual to train diligently. There's nothing mystical, or magical about LHPF. It's just a matter of hard work, and *correct* practice. Any other benefits that come of the training are just that.... other benefits. Sheesh. :rolleyes: There's no pulling of the chi from the ground, or air, or water, etc... It's all a matter of proper physics, biology, kineseology, proper breathing, and training.

>Thanks. Now I see the chinese name, I remember hearing about the style. How does it became known as the “water boxing” here though…?<

>Art Tsai

 The name Water Boxing was the original name of the fighting form. In that the style was like a wave, never relenting, always adapting/changing. It was changed to better reflect the philosophies that are inherent in LHPF. This is from the *martial* art.

  What you see from the Liang's is the performance/dance/wushu variety known as "water boxing" in modern gung fu circles. Utterly worthless as a martial art, or, for that matter, a internal art.

>did this style only have one form?

i know a teacher here that teaches this style.<

>fiercest tiger

   The style is complete, and there are five kuens. Originally there was only the philosophy, and chi gung of Chen Hsi I. The fighting sets were derived from those.

   I know you do. :) We've, very briefly, discussed this before.

Best regards,
R. Drake Sansone
(swmngdragn@home.com)
http://www.liuhopafa.com/
“Train, or go to hell.” Terry W.

[This message was edited by Drake on 10-18-01 at 10:42 PM.]

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drake

I have no idea where you’re going here. You need to realize that the forms do nothing, but teach the techniques, and essential, proper, mechanics. It’s up to the individual to train diligently. There’s nothing mystical, or magical about LHPF. It’s just a matter of hard work, and correct practice. Any other benefits that come of the training are just that… other benefits. Sheesh. There’s no pulling of the chi from the ground, or air, or water, etc… It’s all a matter of proper physics, biology, kineseology, proper breathing, and training.

I did not mean to imply that it has magical powers, but with any internal style the use of cultivating chi and borrowing universal chi is apparent is it not?
when performing a set of tai chi chuan are you not playing with not only your chi but that of the energy that surronds you?

This is all I meant when I said The practioner pulls the chi from the ground and encircles it and depenses it at will against their opponents.
But is that not the goal of any internal form? for it is no longer the muscle strength that is used to defend but that of chi! which obviously comes from as you said from proper physics, biology, kineseology, proper breathing, and training. which teaches you how to use internal force as opposed to physical strength.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

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Wai Lun Huang also teaches it in Miami.

“Always be ready”

“right, that’s it!you’ve insulted me, and you’ve insulted the shaolin temple!”-Fish of Furry

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The term ‘water boxing’ refers to common metaphors used in different Xing-Yi schools. It often refers to how the Xing-Yi practitioner attacks - not like a cool lake, but a rapids moving at flood season - unrelenting, pounding, filling every opening given to it.

This is a likely souce of the ‘nickname’ for the style. This is just a thought I had.

Although the official style name includes ‘Xing-Yi’ in the title, I am told that it contains elements of BaGua and Taiji. But other than having friends in the style, I have little direct experience - other than I can tell you first hand that you DO NOT want to be thrown by Wai Lun Choi. Whee!

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

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Albert Liu

Albert Liu is currently teaching Liu He Ba Fa in SF. I don’t know his lineage, but he’s a closet kind of guy. I don’t think he’s tied in to the main stream. I know he studied Hao Style Taiji and Taiji Bagua as well.

I’ll try to ask him about it. I can’t even remember his full chinese name, but it’s in the Sun Lu Tang book that he translated for Tim Cartmell.

Merciless is Mercy.

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Howdy, again, guys…

E.D.

>I did not mean to imply that it has magical powers, but with any internal style the use of cultivating chi and borrowing universal chi is apparent is it not?
when performing a set of tai chi chuan are you not playing with not only your chi but that of the energy that surronds you?<

 I'll have to disagree with you, in part, here, E.D. Internal means internal. whatever you want to call the life force/chi/breath etc is an intrinsic part of averyone, and every thing. You can't "borrow" from another source. What you have is what you have, and what you're doing is "exercising" what you have. Developing it.

>This is all I meant when I said The practioner pulls the chi from the ground and encircles it and depenses it at will against their opponents.<

 :rolleyes:   See above.

>But is that not the goal of any internal form? for it is no longer the muscle strength that is used to defend but that of chi! which obviously comes from as you said from proper physics, biology, kineseology, proper breathing, and training. which teaches you how to use internal force as opposed to physical strength.<

 You're getting into esoterics. It *may* just be a matter of semantics, here. See above, again.  

 Slap2monkeys.....   ;) 

Hsing-I *isn't* part of the name. Hsin Yi is. Mind/Intent, as opposed to Heart/Will.

Best regards,

R. Drake Sansone
(swmngdragn@home.com)
http://www.liuhopafa.com/
“Train, or go to hell.” Terry W.

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Oops, my bad.

But isn’t Hsin Yi an alternate name for one of the historical branches of Xing Yi? As in - the same ‘family’ or grouping?

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

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>Oops, my bad.<

(insert Raymond Burr type voice)

Yeeeeessss… You aaaarrrrrre. Now bend over. :stuck_out_tongue:

>But isn’t Hsin Yi an alternate name for one of the historical branches of Xing Yi? As in - the same ‘family’ or grouping?<

 In the larger sense? Yes, but each has it's own "flavour", and "sensebilities" that are unique to said style(s). 

 That being said, Hua Shan Hsin Yi Liu Ho Pa Fa Chuan's use of Hsin Yi is a much more appropriate description as opposed to Hsing-I. Again, though, it may just be a matter of semantics. I dunno.  ;)

Best regards,
R. Drake Sansone
(swmngdragn@home.com)
http://www.liuhopafa.com/
“Train, or go to hell.” Terry W.

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Nahh, there are some distinctions between the two - and I used to know this, but I guess I’ve been getting choked too much lately, I can’t for the friggin life of me remember…

Grrr.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

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Did anyone see the LHBF demonstration at the Baltimore tournament? Who was that?

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drake

I think you may misunderstand what I am getting at in regards to borrowing chi.
In a simple example we borrow chi from trees, the circle of exsistence is countinual without trees their is no oxygen so in a sense we borrow life from other sources. When we train internal there is a part of ourselves that uses the energy that we have cultivated and their is also a part that is taken from other things like air, earhts magnatics, atmouspheric ions and such. That is a little scientific but I am trying to explain my point. Do you not agree? how long have you been training internal? have you not experinenced this?

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

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Earth Dragon…

>I think you may misunderstand what I am getting at in regards to borrowing chi.
In a simple example we borrow chi from trees, the circle of exsistence is countinual without trees their is no oxygen so in a sense we borrow life from other sources. When we train internal there is a part of ourselves that uses the energy that we have cultivated and their is also a part that is taken from other things like air, earhts magnatics, atmouspheric ions and such. That is a little scientific but I am trying to explain my point. Do you not agree? how long have you been training internal? have you not experinenced this?<

  I understand where you're coming from. I just don't agree with the "borrowing" concept. The "chi" we have is what we're born with. We *don't* cultivate it from other sources, and attributing it to some outside force is an erroneous statement. If we give up our "chi" we die, as does anything else. ((shrug)) I don't look to the outside, and never have. My teacher had informed me that this was correct. "Chi" is difficult, at best, to explain in words. It's easy to describe the feeling, and even then, everyone's feelings/experiences are different. It's an individual experience. My experiences are not based on a concept that includes "absorbtion" of an esoteric concept. My experience(s) is/are based on training correctly, and *feeling* what's going on with my body. As I said, it's an individual thing. My length of time in the martial arts is irrelevant, but if you must know, I've been involved in them in various forms for around twenty eight years. So I *do* have some small experience.

Best regards,
R. Drake Sansone
(swmngdragn@home.com)
http://www.liuhopafa.com/
“Train, or go to hell.” Terry W.

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According to TCM, there are three sources of ‘Qi’ in the body.
Your pre-birth Qi - what comes from your parents - you are born with it. This Qi slowly fades with age. It cannot be added to - unless you beleive in certain Taoist Qigong practices.

Qi from outside sources - nourishment - Air, Sun, Food.

Qi from activity - exercise.

Out of these three comes many breakdowns. The word Qi can mean intrinsic force or energy, and can have many meanings depending on it’s usage.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

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drake & monkeyslaptoo

Is not breathing borrowing chi from other/outside sources?

drake I did not mean to offend you by asking about how long have you trained, but many times I have had similar conversations about chi and its depths with begginer students who have not grasped even what chi is! so again I did not mean to imply that you did not understand chi concepts just wanted to know where you are at experience wise, I have trained for 19 years so I too have started to understand a little I like how you put that, my thoughts exactly!!! yet its funny to try to expalain things to people with 8 months under their belt who seem to know everythiong all already!!! LOL

http://www.kungfuUSA.net