Liberals Beware!

[QUOTE=Oso;835232]yea, sometimes I feel like dragging adults from their cars full of children and smoke and stick their faces in their tailpipes.

it seems like we agree on the smoking thing.[/QUOTE]

What if they have a concealed smoker’s permit? Don’t step on their constitutional right to kill their children slowly. It’s their constitutional right.

Hell, America was built on the tobacco industry. It’s as American, as, I don’t know…guns.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Oso;835235]because I want to and can legally do so.[/QUOTE]

In other words, you support the production of guns and further distribution. Remember, every gun bought by an upstanding citizen is two more guns bought by a heartless criminal. If you support the machine today, don’t be surprised to get a facefull of exhaust tomorrow.

So why involve your girlfriend in gun-usage and ownership, etc.? Does it make the sex better?

well, since I’m sitting here typing from my home, I haven’t done that because it would be illegal to do so.

I can think what I want, as you can…for now.

[QUOTE=Shaolin Wookie;835237]In other words, you support the production of guns and further distribution. Remember, every gun bought by an upstanding citizen is two more guns bought by a heartless criminal. If you support the machine today, don’t be surprised to get a facefull of exhaust tomorrow.

So why involve your girlfriend in gun-usage and ownership, etc.? Does it make the sex better?[/QUOTE]

ok, now you’re just being an idiot and offensive. I’ve never put anyone on my ignore list but congratulations.

Hiding my words is like hiding your gun.

(I don’t know what that means, but it sounds like it could mean something).

something wierd just happened with the server…a post I just sent didn’t post

why did you change your post?

i decided to not put you on ‘ignore’ because that would be censorship on my part.
In the words of Happy Bunny: I know how you feel, I just don’t care.

If you really are a LEO then perhaps you could offer something to the conversation other than personal insult involved someone you don’t even ‘know’.

perhaps you would have been brave enough to say that in person were you standing here…

If you had paid attention upthread you would have seen that she took up shooting all on her own…mainly because while I had said that it would be fun to go shoot, I never had that much of an inclination having decided 9 years ago that I didn’t really have a need for a firearm. She also brought up purchase and concealed carry.

After some things that have happened in this town, and within a 1/2 mile of the house we just bought in not that great a neighborhood, I’ve been changing my mind.

At this point in time I can legally do everything I desire to do with a firearm.

At this point in time you can pursue your thoughts and feelings on the matter through your right to vote.

maybe between the both of us we can keep both of those rights.

[QUOTE=Oso;835243]something wierd just happened with the server…a post I just sent didn’t post

why did you change your post?

i decided to not put you on ‘ignore’ because that would be censorship on my part.
In the words of Happy Bunny: I know how you feel, I just don’t care.

If you really are a LEO then perhaps you could offer something to the conversation other than personal insult involved someone you don’t even ‘know’.

perhaps you would have been brave enough to say that in person were you standing here…

If you had paid attention upthread you would have seen that she took up shooting all on her own…mainly because while I had said that it would be fun to go shoot, I never had that much of an inclination having decided 9 years ago that I didn’t really have a need for a firearm. She also brought up purchase and concealed carry.

After some things that have happened in this town, and within a 1/2 mile of the house we just bought in not that great a neighborhood, I’ve been changing my mind.

At this point in time I can legally do everything I desire to do with a firearm.

At this point in time you can pursue your thoughts and feelings on the matter through your right to vote.

maybe between the both of us we can keep both of those rights.[/QUOTE]

Can’t take a joke, eh? Ah well, not everyone shares the same sense of humor. Drugs are in every neighborhood, and purchasing a gun won’t change that. I say, let’s just call this one a stalemate for your sake, since you don’t want to discuss it.

Gun ownership is a psychological thing, and not much more. It’s a power issue; it’s a sexual issue; it’s a security issue. It’s rarely any kind of external issue. Unless you intend to use it (as in military, police, or criminal endeavors), a gun is just a prop that bolsters certain insecurities. (Note: I’m not taking potshots at you on this one, just analyzing the gun’s role in contemporary society).

The question is: do you intend to use your gun?

And–will using your gun improve the situation in your neighborhood and give you better personal security? Will it eradicate the gun/drug problem? Or, will it run up a localized arms race?

Oso

I respect your interest in firearms, I to have this love. I look to inherit quite a collection from my Dad when he passes. Little by little I have been asking him to teach me the proper care and such. Kind of a cool thing to do with your Dad ya know.

Well I guess any area has its bad neighborhoods, and I did have a prostitute try to chase me down once on a trip to Asheville. But Atown is like stepping back into the 60s, with all the long hairs and peace and love, not to mention the smell of burning rope! And your sig other did spark this interest first eh? Anyway, I say get them while you can and hold on tight. Take me to the range next time Im over.

Hey Im a Liberal

And i think its great that you are exercising your 2 amendment rights to bear arms. I personally do not like hand guns and carrying em around on your hip or tucked in your back crack is just silly, this aint the wild fukin west.

Nah i prefer my good ole semi-auto shotgun for home protection. but cool you got a 9mm. The only hand gun that i have fired that i actually liked was a Sig-Saur .40, good action, very accurate. Oh and i was watching History channel the other day and saw the Sharpshooters special they had, made me appreciate my shot gun more and more. Those guys are surgeons with those rifles. One guy threw 8 count em 8 clay pidgeons in the air and got em all before they hit the ground. i also liked the trick shot that other guy did where he sliced the poker card in half at 30 yds. way cool

                                                          Peace, TWS

[QUOTE=Shaolin Wookie;835237]In other words, you support the production of guns and further distribution. Remember, every gun bought by an upstanding citizen is two more guns bought by a heartless criminal. If you support the machine today, don’t be surprised to get a facefull of exhaust tomorrow.

So why involve your girlfriend in gun-usage and ownership, etc.? Does it make the sex better?[/QUOTE]

Can you back that statistic up?

Oso,
You can always have a good clue of who is carrying in the summer. Tank top, 10% chance they’re carrying, Hawaiian shirt, 90% chance. :smiley:

And i think its great that you are exercising your 2 amendment rights to bear arms. I personally do not like hand guns and carrying em around on your hip or tucked in your back crack is just silly, this aint the wild fukin west.

That’s why I carry something small in a cross draw.:wink:

[QUOTE=rogue;835262]Can you back that statistic up?
[/QUOTE]
.lanimirc sseltreah a yb thguob snug erom owt si nezitic gnidnatspu na yb thguob nug yreve, rebmemeR.

I honestly don’t see how that’s going to clarify the subject, but I’m always willing to back up my statistics.

Studies have shown that exercise 30 minutes every day decreasestoo many diseases to list HBP Diabetes improves circulation etc. Maybe our medeling Government should sign a law with mandatory exercise for every one to decrease health care costs??? but that would decrease insurance and the fat politicians would waaaa waaaaa. FREEEEEEEDOM TO CHOOOOOSE. I can make my own decisions I dont need others to do it for me. KC

Here are some proper statistics that WILL clarify the subject:

This is a very detailed and statistic laden report. I have only included the conclusions due to its length.

http://saf.org/LawReviews/SouthwickJr1.htm

St. Louis University Public Law Review
Gun Control Symposium
vol 18, no. 1, 1999: 217

[B]GUNS AND JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDE: DETERRENCE AND DEFENSE

Lawrence Southwick, Jr. *
[/B]

Conclusions:

[SIZE=“3”]1) [/SIZE]Using deterrence effects of executions found by others, this was extended to justifiable homicides. The result was an estimate of an incentive effect (deterrence) of from 0.4 to 1.4 million fewer violent crimes due to civilian self-defense use of guns. That included from 2,200 to 7,900 fewer murders per year, implying that the murder rate would have been some 10 to 37 percent higher than it actually was had civilians not had guns for self- defense.

[SIZE=“3”]2) [/SIZE]an expected 10 to 17 percent of civilian victims of violent crime are armed at the time of victimization.

[SIZE=“3”]3) [/SIZE]]it was estimated that at least 500,000 fewer crimes occurred due to armed civilians. If Kleck’s lower estimates of justified homicides are accepted, the numbers are much larger at more than 2,000,000. This is a deterrent effect; the crimes never occur.

[SIZE=“3”]4) [/SIZE]direct estimate of the crime reduction due to civilian handguns was made. The regression run was on changes in crime rates as a function of handgun purchases. The result was significant in every case except for rape and the estimated coefficient was negative there as well. It was reasonable to infer that over 740,000 fewer violent crimes occur each year, [Page 244] including 7,300 fewer murders, because of handgun ownership and use by civilians. Again, this is a deterrent effect. Long guns probably add to this effect.

Putting together all of these results, we find that there is a good correspondence among them. They are derived from different approaches, so that correspondence adds credibility to each method. Somewhere around 0.8 to 2.0 million violent crimes are deterred each year because of gun ownership and use by civilians. In addition, another 1.5 to 2.5 million crimes are stopped by armed civilians. There may be some overlap in these two categories because of the ways in which the data are collected, but there are almost certainly some two to four million fewer completed crimes each year as the result of civilian gun ownership. Returning to Figure 1, the numbers of crimes “A. Deterred by Police/Courts/Corrections” are unknown. The numbers in “B. Stopped by Police” are certainly quite low because police usually respond after the crime is completed. The numbers in “C. Deterred by Civilians” would seem to be around 0.8 to 2.0 million. The numbers in “D. Stopped by Civilians” are around 1.5 to 2.5 million. Finally, the numbers in “E. Completed Crimes” are about 3.5 million, based on NCVS data. Without the civilian guns being used to deter and stop crimes, the numbers of completed crimes could well double. It would undoubtedly be the case that increased gun ownership would further reduce crime.

The following is an analysis of this paper:

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

“We were able to put together figures for nine European nations that had more than 15,000 firearms owned per 100,000 households, and we also had nine European nations that had less than 5,000 firearms owned per 100,000 households,” Kates said.

“What we found was that the first group, with triple the rate of gun ownership, had one-third the homicide rate of the second group.”

On the other hand, in Russia–where firearms had been under police-state control for decades–Kates and Mauser found an exceedingly violent society.

Although the Soviet communist regime tried to hide the problem from the rest of the world, the collapse of the Soviet Union exposed the truth: Despite those iron-fisted government controls on firearm ownership–almost no Russian civilians owned firearms–Russia had, and continues to have, by far the highest murder rate in the developed world.

Kates and Mauser write: “In the 1960s and early ’70s, the gunless Soviet Union’s murder rates paralleled or generally exceeded those of gun-ridden America. While American rates stabilized and then steeply declined, however, Russian murder increased so drastically that by the early 1990s the Russian rate was three times higher than that of the United States. Between 1998-2004 … Russian murder rates were nearly four times higher than American rates.”

We see much the same thing in Luxembourg, where handguns are completely banned and firearm ownership of any kind is rare. Even though its (lawful) citizens are effectively disarmed, in 2002 Luxembourg had a murder rate nine times higher than in neighboring Germany–where firearms are legal and widely owned.

“Individuals who commit violent crimes will either find guns despite severe controls or will find other weapons to use.”

Kates and Mauser point to comparison after comparison that shows no link between gun availability and suicide rates. For example, Spain has 12 times the gun-ownership rate of Poland, yet Poland’s suicide rate is more than double that of Spain. Greece has triple the gun-ownership rate of the Czech Republic–and admittedly more gun-related suicide–yet the overall Czech suicide rate is nearly triple that of Greece. Similarly, Finland has over 14 times the gun-ownership rate of its southern neighbor Estonia, yet Estonia nonetheless has a much higher suicide rate than Finland.

In the absence of firearms, suicidal people simply substitute other means. As evidence, Kates and Mauser point to two powerful examples.

In the 1980s, suicide among teenagers and young adults spiked in the U.S., and many blamed firearm availability for the increase. What they failed to mention was that suicide among young adults was rising throughout the developed world–regardless of gun availability–and in many places was rising far faster than in the U.S.

Among English youth, for example, suicide increased 10 times as fast as among American youth, yet the preferred method of suicide there was car exhaust asphyxiation.

Another tragic illustration involves suicide among young Indian women living on the island of Fiji. When these women marry, often to non-Indian men, they commonly go to live with their husbands’ extended families in less-than-friendly, if not openly antagonistic, circumstances. Perhaps as a result, they have a suicide rate many times higher than that of non-Indian Fijian women.

Guns are unavailable to these women, Kates and Mauser report, but that evidently makes no difference: Many still commit suicide–about 75 percent of them through hanging, and nearly all the rest by poisoning themselves with the herbicide Paraquat.

Giving Guns Magical Powers and Malevolence Toward Man

Another favorite fantasy of the gun haters is that firearms have some mystical power to transform otherwise lawful, peaceable people into murderers and maniacs.

To hear the gun-ban lobby tell the tale, it’s as if firearms were some sort of evil magic charm just waiting for humans to let down their guard so that they, the firearms, could turn the tables on us once and for all.

Firearms, they tell us, will turn family disagreements into shooting wars.
A gun kept in a closet as a defense against intruders, they say, will instead be used against a spouse in a moment of rage.

According to the Violence Policy Center, “the majority of homicide[s] [occur] … not as a result of criminal activity, but because of arguments between people who know each other.”

But as Kates and Mauser point out in their study, “These comments … contradict facts that have so uniformly been established by homicide studies dating back to the 1890s that they have become ‘criminological axioms.’ … [N]either a majority, nor many, nor virtually any murderers are ordinary ‘law-abiding citizens.’ Rather, almost all murderers are extremely aberrant individuals with life histories of violence, psychopathology, substance abuse and other dangerous behaviors.”

What’s more, as Kates and Mauser note, a major national, yearlong study on gun murders in U.S. homes between acquaintances found that the most common situation was one in which the victim and the perpetrator “knew one another because of prior illegal transactions.”

Read between the lines and you’ll realize what that refers to: Drug pushers murdered by rivals or robbers. Gang members murdered by fellow gang members. Women murdered by stalkers or domestic abusers.

In any of these cases, as Kates and Mauser explain, the perpetrators are “all individuals for whom federal and state laws already prohibit gun possession.”

Do Guns Reduce Crime? Or Does Crime Reduce Guns?

Although their data would support such a claim, Kates and Mauser don’t argue in their paper that firearm ownership is the cause of low crime rates in many European nations.

As they write in their paper, “It would be simplistic to assume that at all times and in all places widespread gun ownership depresses violence by deterring many criminals into nonconfrontation crime, [although] there is evidence that it does so in the United States …”

Instead, they maintain, with refreshing candor, that some European countries simply have low crime rates, and because of that, those countries never imposed anti-gun laws. So gun ownership is high, and crime is low–it’s just not necessarily low as a result.

As an illustration, Kates cites Norway: “The reason Norwegians have guns is for hunting. They don’t keep them for self-defense and they don’t need them–they have a low-crime country.”

On the other hand, some European nations experiencing high levels of crime subsequently passed anti-gun laws–but those laws failed to have any effect on crime.

“The people you need to control are not going to obey the gun control laws,” Kates explained. “And the people you don’t need to control, those are the ones who obey. So what you get is, you get either nothing, or you get worse results, with gun control.”

In the final analysis, this paper places the burden of proof squarely on the shoulders of the proponents of anti-gun laws.

For, although higher rates of gun ownership may not necessarily reduce crime in all societies, in no case can it be demonstrated that higher gun ownership rates cause higher crime.

The relationship between firearms and crime may be one of correlation more than causation, but the correlation is a good one: More guns may not always dictate less crime. . . but more guns definitely go hand-in-hand with less crime.
And the advocates of gun bans bear the burden of proving otherwise before imposing more onerous laws.

As Kates and Mauser conclude in their study:

"Whether gun availability is viewed as a cause or as a mere coincidence, the long term macrocosmic evidence is that gun ownership spread widely throughout societies consistently correlates with stable or declining murder rates. Whether causative or not, the consistent international pattern is that more guns equal less murder and other violent crime.

More Right-to-Carry.

The number of RTC (Righ To Carry) states is at an all-time high, up from 15 in 1991 to 40 today.

In 2006, states with RTC laws, compared to the rest of the country, had lower violent crime rates on average: total violent crime lower by 26, murder by 31%, robbery by 50%, and aggravated assault by 15%.

BATF, Crime Gun Trace Reports (1999) National Report, Nov. 2000, p. ix

Right to Bear Arms " Give me Liberty or Give me death". I do not smoke but I will fight for your right to choose to smoke or not or to have a weapon or not. The Gov uses fear to intimidate us to their way of thinking and make us conform to what they want. Wake up. KC:D

You’ve got to take “violent crimes” with a bag of salt. Although statistics may drop in certain categories, they will almost always rise in the field of forcible rape. Plus, whenever you’ve got a population growing old and decreasing the pool of possible criminals (as in our baby boomers) statistics will always look like they’re dropping. All this means is that certain “violent crimes” dropped, while others rose. It’s pick and choose. Maybe gang violence decreased and aggravated assault rose.

Or, maybe the criminal world was in a recession…LOL…or the criminal intelligence factor weighed in (criminals are getting stupider) [http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=2508775]. Or, maybe it’s smarter. High-tech crimes are on the rise. Why rob someone at gunpoint when you can steal an identity and milk it for thousands?

Gun availability does not equal crime deterrence.

And, on the flipside:

Gun bans do not equal criminal inactivity (so long as it’s not a complete gun-ban). It’s like outlawing smoking for cigar-smokers, but not cigarette smokers. What’s the point?

Also, most violent crimes are committed by close acquaintances and family. Are you prepared to shoot your friend, brother, uncle, cousin? Is he strapped? Anti-gun control just pushes gun toters to the Wild West mentality.

[QUOTE=kwaichang;835296]Right to Bear Arms " Give me Liberty or Give me death". I do not smoke but I will fight for your right to choose to smoke or not or to have a weapon or not. The Gov uses fear to intimidate us to their way of thinking and make us conform to what they want. Wake up. KC:D[/QUOTE]

They don’t need fear. They just schmooze us with guys like Bush, and somehow we don’t hold them accountable for it.

Mitt Romney '08! Sounds like a plan!

[QUOTE=Shaolin Wookie;835297]

Gun availability does not equal crime deterrence.

And, on the flipside:

Gun bans do not equal criminal inactivity.[/QUOTE]

It is irrelevant whether the overall crime statistics in total numbers are dropping. Statistics relevant to this argument are based upon per 100,000 population.

Your opinion is emotionally based and not fact based. I come to this conclusion based upon the your willingness to ignore facts and adhere to a view that cannot be scientifically supported by the facts. The posts above are based upon scientific studies, your opinion is based upon what you WANT to occur.

I will re-refer you to this conclusion:

As Kates and Mauser conclude in their study:

"Whether gun availability is viewed as a cause or as a mere coincidence, the long term macrocosmic evidence is that gun ownership spread widely throughout societies consistently correlates with stable or declining murder rates. Whether causative or not, the consistent international pattern is that more guns equal less murder and other violent crime.

[QUOTE=Shaolin Wookie;835297] most violent crimes are committed by close acquaintances and family. Are you prepared to shoot your friend, brother, uncle, cousin? Is he strapped? Anti-gun control just pushes gun toters to the Wild West mentality.[/QUOTE]

Please refer to the above quote:

as Kates and Mauser point out in their study, “These comments contradict facts that have so uniformly been established by homicide studies dating back to the 1890s that they have become criminological axioms. [N]either a majority, nor many, nor virtually any murderers are ordinary law-abiding citizens. Rather, almost all murderers are extremely aberrant individuals with life histories of violence, psychopathology, substance abuse and other dangerous behaviors.”

Whats more, as Kates and Mauser note, a major national, yearlong study on gun murders in U.S. homes between acquaintances found that the most common situation was one in which the victim and the perpetrator “knew one another because of prior illegal transactions.”

Read between the lines and youll realize what that refers to: Drug pushers murdered by rivals or robbers. Gang members murdered by fellow gang members. Women murdered by stalkers or domestic abusers.