@Beatrice,
Since there’s a PBVT school in your current city it’s really an opportunity to see firsthand how their system works and differs from LTWT. You really should take the time to cross the street. Then you might understand their point of view. I’m sure the school would be open to having you by.
[QUOTE=Frost;1267616]actually it was, the whole lineage thing comes down to BOTH long you trained with someone, and who that someone was,[/quote]
He only commented on the amount of learning, and you commented on the person. You’re talking about two different things.
those who trained directly with WSL for a long time havent shown us they can fight,
Waddle into one of their schools and test them then.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1267619]@Beatrice, Since there’s a PBVT school in your current city it’s really an opportunity to see firsthand how their system works and differs from LTWT. You really should take the time to cross the street. Then you might understand their point of view. I’m sure the school would be open to having you by.[/QUOTE]
When I’m in town for more than 4 or 5 days at a time, I probably will visit them to say hello, train with them if they’re happy to let me, and get some first hand experience. These days I barely have time to wash clothes before I’m packing again and heading back to the airport. 
But how will that help me with Graham’s nonsensical statement that LT hardly learnt anything from Yip Man?
I’m sure the PBVT guys train hard and have skill, and I’m sure that their approach will be different to mine - no, I know it will be. It will be great to experience it first-hand, but I already know there are differences. Whatever their skill level (or mine for that matter) we know that we’ll both think our systems are different.
How will it help me understand what LT did or did not learn? All it can show me is what those guys learn from PB.
Graham’s statement is, simply, him once again bashing LT and asserting something he cannot possibly know anything about. The way he talks, you’d think PB (Graham gets these silly ideas from PB?) attended those private lessons between Yip Man and Leung Ting.
Graham doesn’t like the LT knife form. Fair enough.
But people like Robert Chu, someone outside of the WT system, has experienced it and says that its a good form and that he believes it came from Yip Man to LT.
Graham (from previous threads) has indicated that he doesn’t like LT’s pole form either. Fair enough.
But LT has video footage of Yip Man (I think recorded about 6 or 7 years before Yip Man’s death) performing the form. I’ve not seen it myself, but I know a few people who have - people who are not connected - and they all say that LT’s form is the same.
Graham claims that LT didn’t learn much from Yip Man. How can he possibly know?
What we do know is that YM said himself that he was teaching LT. We know from Kwok Keung that these lessons took place, and indeed Kwok Keung took photos of YM teaching LT. We know that YM started by first correcting LT’s wooden dummy form. We also know that YM wanted LT to teach at the VTAA - this was essentially YM’s organisation - and that’s a strange thing for YM to ask if he hadn’t taught LT anything. We also know that YM attended various WT events that LT taught at and demo’d at - again, a strange thing to do, to lend your support to someone, if that someone is not teaching what you’d taught them.
Where we know for certain that Graham is correct, is in his opinion that LTWT is different to PBVT. No arguments from me there. They are surely different interpretations.
Edit: We know that PB was taught by WSL. We also know that David Peterson was taught by WSL. From comments on this forum, we can also see that people who train the WSL method don’t view PB’s system as being exactly the same as DP’s. Who teaches a system closest to WSL’s? Ask a PB student and they’ll say PB. Ask a DP student and they’ll say DP. Heck, Gary Lam’s from WSL too and his interpretation looks different to PB’s and DP’s, and he studied with WSL in Hong Kong for 15 years. I wouldn’t say any of them are doing things wrong, or that any of them ‘hardly learned anything’ from WSL.
Is it really so strange that PBVT and LTWT don’t look the same? The only strange thing is Graham’s mission to pour scorn at any method that doesn’t match his own.
LT’s experience aside, everyone will think what they’ve learned is great until they’ve learned something that makes more sense and shows where the errors are with the previous ideas. Not saying that will necessarily be your experience, although it has been for numerous others, it’d be interesting to get your honest opinion after experiencing it.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1267629]LT’s experience aside, everyone will think what they’ve learned is great until they’ve learned something that makes more sense and shows where the errors are with the previous ideas.[/QUOTE]
It is absolutely true that I like what I learn. But to be honest, there will always be someone out there who can use their method in a way to exploit yours. But yes, if I get the chance to visit in the near future I’ll happily give my impressions. And I’m sure they will be impressive - people who train hard usually are.
But let’s be honest - you’re being a little bit cheeky. 
You’re suggesting I go visit because you think these guys will be able to show me errors in what I do. And maybe they can/will 
And if I come here and honestly post about it and say, “Wow, they give me a schooling,” then you’ll say, “Yes, that’s because the PBVT system makes more sense than the LTWT system.”
But what if someone much better than me, from the LTWT system visited them? What if he showed them how he could use his system to expose their errors? If that person where to come here and post that experience, would you then say, “Okay, that shows that the LTWT system makes more sense than the PBVT system”?
[QUOTE=LFJ;1267629]Not saying that will necessarily be your experience, although it has been for numerous others, it’d be interesting to get your honest opinion after experiencing it.[/QUOTE]
I think there are lots of people who have been impressed with the WSL method. And lots who have been impressed with the PBVT method specifically. I really don’t have a problem with that.
Though I’ve been waiting for maybe 9 months or more for Graham to get back to me with the names of the people he claims learned the LTWT method as it is taught in Hong Kong, who then converted to the PBVT method. 
He’s been kinda slow getting those names (namely because the guys he’s referring to are actually ex-EWTO guys and not people who learned the method as it is taught in HK).
anyone have the whole lueng ting knife form on video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxDU4ePKRgE here is randy williams knife form. looks pretty well rounded.
@Beatrice,
Sure anyone with greater ability can potentially beat someone else regardless of style. But there are objective aspects of the systems that can be compared and if one is more sound than another it should make anyone a better fighter if they adopt this method and develop the skill than if they stick with the one that makes less sense. People come to realize how little sense it makes once they’ve experienced a more sound approach. Before the experience they are none the wiser. Then come the doubts regarding the origins of the method they previous followed, and the bitterness for lost time. That’s the common story, anyhow.
Sure - I had a similar experience in the past. Actually, I had it twice. Once, discovering LTWT over something else, then a second time (more recently), discovering something else within the LTWT system, as it were. Of all the WCK lineages, LT’s is one with the most confusion and misunderstandings; some small, some big. It’s some rabbit hole, Alice.
As WT is just a hobby (for me), it’s all just a learning experience as far as I’m concerned.
To add, I know someone who has experienced pretty much every line of WCK from YM, and a few WCK branches outside of the YM line too over the last 20+ years. He doesn’t study the LT system anymore, but he still has very good things to say about it - and he also had exposure to someone who was a direct student of WSL. He doesn’t, today, study the WSL method either. He enjoyed getting the exposure to the WSL method, but it wasn’t such that he thought it worth studying over the LT method.
Different people see things differently. For some people, PB is the be all and end all. If they’re happy, then it’s all cool. 
[QUOTE=BPWT..;1267640]I had a similar experience in the past. Actually, I had it twice. Once, discovering LTWT over something else, then a second time (more recently), discovering something else within the LTWT system, as it were.[/QUOTE]
Same for me (and Graham) within WSLVT. The spectrum of practically useless to outstanding exists in probably most lineages. But that’s because certain people who probably shouldn’t be teaching manage to get names for themselves somehow. Riding coattails and all that… :rolleyes: