Hi All,
I’ve read somewhere that Lee Kwan Shan’s Hua Lin Tan Tui PM, was a somewhat compact system with relatively few forms. How did so many Wah Lum forms come into being? What is the actual “core” of the Wah Lum system? How much Mantis is in Wah Lum Mantis?
LKL
Do a search for ‘Wah Lum’ and you’ll find answers to those questions. I’ve commented on this subject a few times.
Basically I believe the core forms are at the highest levels of Grandmaster Chan Pui’s Wah Lum. There are forms with the same name as found in other branches but completely different moves (Fan Che, Little Fan Che). Then there are forms that are variations of the ones found in other branches but the name has changed (Big Mantis/Bung Bo, ?/Luanjie). It can get confusing.
I don’t know the origin of the lower level forms but I do know he’s been gathering new ones from his sihings on his trips to China over the years. He also has some manuscripts which can also be the source for some of the forms he’s added to the system. Word has it that Chan Wan Ching created the numbered forms when he took over after Lee Kwan Shan died.
I have yet to see Wah Lum’s Tong Long Chut Dong, Swallow or it’s version of Luanjie (WL name unknown to me).
How much Mantis is in it I don’t know yet. It’s all integrated so it’s hard to tell. I’m beginning to think there’s more than some people think.
Plenty has been said here on this topic. I am waiting on a list to be sent to me. This list apparently names the 10 or 12 core forms. I had the understanding that Chan Wan Ching and Chan Pui both collaborated on the WL 1 thru 6 forms. All very nice sets. One of my Shifus was Sean Cochran. He told me (and 18 elders)more than once, that we would never learn the real Mantis. He also claimed time an again, that these 1 thru 6 forms were just training forms. But then, he also told me everything I had learned so far (level 6) was just training forms.This has danced around in my head for many years. Fn training forms!? What was meant by this? I personally can see plenty of Mantis in WL, maybe just presented differantly, but there none-the-less.
Master Chan has sihings in China? I`d like to hear more about these men and where they are. Are these sihings Wah Lum guys? Fascinating! I hear there is an elder here in the states, but this is hush hush stuff.
I think MC is like the rest of us, over the years he was continuing his studies also. It is all good!
Hey yu shan, don’t foget to share. 
Please, please.
As far as I know they are older relatives (uncles and such). Since he was the youngest and last student of LKS it’s safe to assume that there were plenty of sihings. Most have probably passed away by now so hopefully he picked up their knowledge before they left.
The Tiger Fork King we met used to keep the riffraff out of the school back in the day. I think he’s 80+. Wish I spoke chinese to get some stories from that guy. Don’t know how much Wah Lum he knows but he didn’t look like he was planning on doing any of it any time soon.
I have no idea what Sean meant by training forms. What the hellio would a non-training form look like? Would that be a show form then? Guess I’d rather have training forms if that’s the case.
wah lum
Not sure if the people there are really his wah lum sihings?
MC wanted SC to stay at his family village to teach wah lum there. If they are his older wah lum sihings, why would he want SC to teach there?
As from what i remember, they only knew a few forms there.
I think the old guy was MC’s fathers body guard.
LKS WL had 12 hand forms. If you know those 12 hand forms, you know the “real” WL. Find some one still living who knows the ones you weren’t taught. Go to Hong Kong or Sha Cheng, and learn them. Didn’t LKS teach for Chin Woo? Maybe they have a record of his curriculum. What he taught up to his death in 1948, is the real WL. No subsequent master can claim to know more about a system than its founder.
WL stylists have a similar problem to N. Eagle Claw stylists with two exceptions. One, Eagle Claw stylists have the advantage of a known, and well documented curriculum. No one can claim to know the “secret” forms. Two, there’s more than one living GM. No one can claim to be sole inheritor of the system.
If you do find the core of WL, you should probably have the Cantonese source document it “Quan Pu” form.
P.S.
Could it be that in GM Chan’s WL, “secret” forms have recently been devised for the eventual inheritors of “his” lineage? For example, some schools of HK PM have secret/inheritor forms that didn’t exist in LGY’s lifetime.
LKL
First of all, thank you for this insightful thread. Although Wah Lum is not my interest anymore, I have a clandestine love affair with it`s sketchy history. Mostly to help others understand.
Should research go towards Chin Woo? Will a “Quan Pu” ever be discovered?
This list I mentioned, looks like I will not see. Promises to secrecy and the fact that I was going to let the cat out of the bag. My source is not going to give the info. What is wrong with knowing the 12 core forms of Wah Lum? Tell us what will be hurt by this?
LKL, I know what you mean about “his” lineage. Looking forward to anything else you can give us. Thank you!
yushan
Does your source know if the 12 core forms are still taught in his system?
Obviously, since I’m still in the system, I’m interested in any information regarding Wah Lum. If anyone has something to share that they don’t wish to be made public I can be contacted at hualinmantis@yahoo.com.
“If you know those 12 hand forms, you know the “real” WL.”
True, but if you don’t know them could you still know the real WL? A good topic for a new thread maybe. Did LKS actually create those 12 forms or just added them? Too many questions.
The techniques make the style, not the forms. Forms are part of a system. Knowing the techniques/applications you can create forms. I think if you know the tech/app you know the style but to know the system you need to have the tech/app, forms, drills and training methods.
“What he taught up to his death in 1948, is the real WL.”
That may be a true statement but it doesn’t make the current teachings any less WL. Do you know Wong Long’s original sets?
“No subsequent master can claim to know more about a system than its founder.”
All the arts are refined and grow over time. Knowing more than the founder would not be unusual. That’s like saying that a style becomes less and less after each generation. I don’t believe that to be true.
18elders
I’m a bit puzzled by what I saw at WL China myself. I don’t think MC’s sihings were interested in teaching. The only person you ever hear about since Chan Wan Ching is Chan Pui. Since MC is known internationally and nobody has stepped up to contest his leadership, I’m guessing that everyone supports him (or at least just doesn’t care).
Hua lin
I looked at your masters web site and it says wl of U.S.A. Wouldnt that make it a different system or at least organization than what is in china?
I also noticed that the founder of the system lived during one of China’s many turbulant times in history. It also stated that he was a body guard or escort of some kind and probably used his skills in a life or death situation frequently.
This could be why there may have been only 12 sets (if the person with this info is not misinformed). I think that someone living in that time would just want to focus on the things that would work for him in combat because he used it in a real life situation. He probably did not care to have 120 forms or what lineage, he just cared that what he did would save his a$$.
I have noticed from your previous posts that your system does not have a lot of the ling side to sets. Do you think that this could be because the founder used more weapons in his trade than fist fighting? This is easy to determine. Does your system have extensive weapons training? If it does it may have more two person weapons sets than open hand because that is what the founder used. That is not stating that it is not an effective fist fighting system also. I am sure it is. It may be similar to the way our modern day soldiers focus more on marksmanship and tactics than on open hand self defense.
As for the sihings in China. They are probably more concerned with where there next meal is coming from more than thier bung bo.
If they had more time for kung fu they may even be able to answer your questions on the forum.
Have a good day
Wah Lum of China has been kept alive through the effort of Chan Wan Ching’s sister. The school is still there and the headquarters moved back from Hong Kong 6 or 7 years ago. It does not appear to be growing at all (although I haven’t been there in awhile). It’s very small compared to WL USA. Master Chan Pui is responsible for making Wah Lum what it is today.
Due to Lee Kwan Shan’s background I suspect he wasn’t a ‘forms guy’. I think he was more application oriented (unless he liked to withold info). This is why I question the need for the original forms. I would really like to have them but if all the material is in the current forms it doesn’t really matter. The question is whether all the material is in there and how much is ‘extra’. It’s been said that everything is in the WL Soft Form. This form has 6 parts and I don’t know of anyone that knows more than 3 or 4 parts. I only have part 2 but was told that part 1 is very basic.
Wah Lum may be missing the ling side because LKS never created any. Who knows. I prefer a smaller number of sets plus the ling side (although I’ll settle for just a smaller core).
Unfortunately I ddon’t speak the lingo so I won’t be getting any info directly from China any time soon. And I don’t think his sihings hang out on the Internet.
BTW, Lee Kwan Shan was basically a swordsman. He was known for his Double Broadsword skills. He kept them strapped to his back at all times (except when using them of course). I suspect his hand skills were secondary considering his line of work.
He also smoked opium and had some wicked pipe skills as well. Those skills were probably translated into the Fatal Flute set. It’s one thing to carry a steel flute around but I can’t imagine a cop believing that the opium pipe in my car is a kung fu training tool.
lamakwoklee
You mention 12 original hand forms. Do you have any specific information concerning these? I ask because others have mentioned 10 or 12 forms, not neccessarily hand forms. I would think that his 10 or 12 forms would include hand and weapons.
Wouldnt it be funny if it turned out to be the 10 or twelve roads of tan tui?
You want the names of the 12?
I have that, it is certanly not a secret.
The person who gave me the list(don’t ask) is familiar with different branches of PM.
He said that his way of doing these WL forms is very similar to Taji PM of Zhao Zhuxi.
Interesting to note that there is a good bit of overlap between WL core forms and Taiji PM(Mantis108 Shifu).
I would be interested in a list. I like the history and comparison of two systems. I am just beginnning to learn the history of mantis. Seems to be alot there.
Have a good day
If I may…
I believe that Wah Lum might be related to Meihwa Shuai Shou of Bao Guangying. There is a branch of his student in Guangzhou province still. He seemed to have left 5 manuscripts behind. They might prove useful in finding the root of Wah Lum. I somewhat agreed with Hualin that Tanglang in the beginning needed not to be a form based system. As for creating forms, it is true that anyone can create or even alter one with just some experiences in Kung Fu. The problem is that how would it fit into the system without being like a thorn that sticks out?
Mantis108
Hmm, it seems I forgot that I had that list already. Way too many disorganized notes. Thanks TM.
1.bung bo -beng bu AKA big mantis
2.lan jeet -lan jie
3.baht zhao -ba zhou
4.tam toy -tan tuei
5.lin wahn jurng -lien huan zhang? (continuous palms)
6.teet bay sow -tieh men suan- iron door bolt AKA little mantis
7.dai fan che -da fan che
8.yat lo lin wahn tam toy -yi lu lien huan tan tuei- first route continuous tan tuei
9.yee lo"“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“second route”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”"
10.saam lo"“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“third route”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”"
11.yau ling kuen
12.yin ji chuen lum
Of the 12 the WL curriculum (from the handbook) lists:
Big Mantis/Bung Bo
Tam Tui
Little Mantis/Tieh Men Suan
Fan Che
Swallow/Yin Ji Chuen Lum
The rest must have different names.
Lin Wan Jurng (Continous Palms) could be Buddha Palm.
Some of the ones I’m unfamiliar with are:
Six Corners
Eighteen Kicks (possibley Continous Tan Tui?)
Eighteen Locking Hands
So Lo Sow
Too bad none of the more knowledgable WL Sifu’s are here to shed some light on these sets.
HLL
Very interesting. A few questions, do you know anyone who has learned this 18 Kicks form? I know you are a WL Shifu and you post here, is this frowned apone with your organization? Ive wondered why WL Shifus don`t post here.
I saw Yao Li do the Swallow form at a tournament at the Bay Front Center in St. Pete in the 70`s. MC brought a troupe down to compete… they blew everyone away. I know it was “the Swallow form” because I asked him.
hua lin
Cant you just ask your master about the history of the forms or which form is which?
Have a good day
Yushan
Is this swallow form you are talking the same forr as
Swallow rush the forest boxong from 7*?
Thanks