when where and why do you use the lap sau ?
wing chun is NOT easy.
lap sau…
… when receiving your opponent’s intention.
There you go… 3 more words for ya. I don’t know how much more elaborate I can get… I have a headache…
[This message was edited by Whipping Hand on 08-15-01 at 07:50 PM.]
[This message was edited by Whipping Hand on 08-15-01 at 07:51 PM.]
What a great answer
Hello,
WH has provided another answer which does not actually tell you anything 
I will give you a couple of brief ideas and hopefully get a chance to go into greater detail a bit later when time permits. Maybe this will even get others to post as well.
You can use Lop after performing a Bong Sau. This can be done in order to change your angle and attack from the outside, or inside as well. For example; you Bong with your right hand your opponents left punch. Using your left hand you Lop his punch and convert the Bong into and attack. Conversly you can do a cross Bong using a right Bong to his right punch, a bit more dangerous but doable, in this case you can convert the Bong to a Lop and change your angle to attack from the outside. BTW before WH says how dangerous this is this is an application which is found within the Wooden Dummy, unless I have been misled in that form too 
You are not limited to using Lop from Bong or in conjunction with Bong. In some cases you may wish to establish a bridge with one hand and use this point of contact to Lop adn draw the opponent in.
These are just a few ideas off the top of my head. I hope it gives you an idea of where to go with this.
Peace,
Dave
good answer sihing73. one thing i used to drill (and prety much every wc school ever) was intercepting with bong, then lap, then chop (fat sau), while pulling the opponent into the fat sau with the lap sau’ing hand.
i find bong sau very hard to use in real application - this is due to the need of more drilling before i could consider using this. anyways lap can really be used any time when you have contact with the opponents arm/wrist. Experiment with it - throw in lap saus to see when it is most effective yourself!
Thanks, and peace
Edd
My anus is superiorâ„¢
intersting question.the answer depends on your depth of understanding of wc principals.lop is used continually.by that i mean you always want to keep your opponant off balance by utilizing multipal energies at the same time.Lop is the simplest method of utilizing pulling energy.a punch is an example of pushing energy(this is meant to be a very basic explanation).If you lop and punch, your opponant moves is 2 opposite directions at the same time.what this means is that the non attacking hand should always be lopping or pak/gum/jut.tok etc.this is one way to keep continous control over the opponants center of gravity.
one,
I have found lop sau to be a somewhat inneffective tool in a real fight scenario.
In the kwoon, where your opponent holds his arm
out for you, sure they are effective.
In real life, at least the fights I have been in,
people withdraw their fists very, very fast and this makes a lop sau near impossible. Especially if the person has any boxing experience. In boxing you chamber your fist back as quick as you strike with it.
So my answer would be,
You use lop sau in the kwoon and not on the street.
There was me, that is Alex, and my three droogs, that is Pete, Georgie, and Dim, Dim being really dim, and we sat in the Korova Milkbar making up our rassoodocks…
If it’s not good on the street…
… what’s the point of doing in the school? for scrubbing floors?
hunt1
that’s exactly what I said.
I agree with JiuKaiMan…using the bong lap i chi sau is one thing but in a fight it is near impossible to pull off.
Most of what we do in the kwoon can’t be used on the street anyways Whipping Hand…
…Empty
lap sau we’re talking about…
sorry to burst a bubble but if you cant use a lop in a fight then you dont understand how to use lop period.If you understand energy concepts then lop is easy.You do not lop when an arm is retracting.you use pushing energy and follow the retraction.lop is used as the energy is still going forward.Do you even understand what the bong lop drill is teaching.Most dont.I have trained with 3 professional boxers of different weight classes and i can tell you lop works just fine.in fact they hate it.
I know lap works…I was referring to the bong-lap which is a very dangerous and inefficient manoeuvre…
I use lap sau both inside and outside the arm, but in the case of the bong-lap, I don’t see why one wouldn’t use a biu or tan instead
I actually mean more about the bong than the lap itself…sorry about the confusion. I just don’t think too highly of the bong’s structure…I think it is dangerous because the angle of the punch has to be precise for the bong to work properly…otherwise it gets jammed or you rip your shoulder. on the other hand, if contact is already made and the person still continues attacking, bong can be used to deflect the force, but I don’t like using it to intercept punches when biu or tan or pow are there to use as well…
lop sau (bong lop da) is quite effective.
i have used it if fairly real situations. lop sau (bong lop da) is very useful in VERY close in fighting. like when you rush in very close to your oppenent and it makes it hard for them to attack, but they still do and it gives a good opportunity to use lop sau. in regards to using it with a boxer, after you bong their jag, lop as they are pulling back. i hope that is clear. you lop on their retraction. also when doing the bong their arm may skid off yours and not be in contact, so you must lop farther out to catch their punch. a good way to look at lop’ing on the opponents pull back is when you do lop sau on the dummy. you bong to the outside of the dummy, then you lop the arm of the dummy on the inside. so you are not lopping the same arm you bong’ed, but the other one. (sorry, this is really hard to put into words and not show be able to show you). but i do agreee that bong is not your first choise in a real fight. in a real fight you want to keep it basic, pak sau, tan da, bil. but if you train your bong sau it will be there if you need it. kind of like jut sau, your primary low block is gaun sau, but jut is a back up. now don’t get me wrong, you should train everything equally. but what comes out in a real fight is your basics. 
“when doing the bong their arm may skid off yours and not be in contact, so you must lop farther out to catch their punch.”
this sounds dangerous as you’re chasing hands…also, say I was going for the opponent’s left arm, wouldn’t this leave my whole left side open?
I have learned the whole dummy routine so i know the part where bong sau is used then a lap with a neck chop. However, the version I learned has the lap on the same hand as the bong…
There is a time and place…
…for everything.
Bong sau - lop da can be applied on the street… it’s just knowing how and when to use it.
- Whipping Hand Jr.
haha 
for a second there I thought it WAS him…
couple of points.you do not lop a retraction of the arm.in class it might give a nice lever but you are opposing force.go with the direction of the force do not try to see if your lop is stronger than his retraction of his arm.
Bong is great in a fight.sounds like you are blocking and not covering.blocks lead to chasing hands and a loss of timing.cover dont block.remember bong does not remain it forms another position upon contact.bong and biu are the same.
Yip Chun once said there ae only 2 techniques in Wc lop and pak. to simple perhaps but there is a point there worth thinking about.
hunt1, you are correct in saying the bong never stays “bong sau mo ding ying”
I think the Yip Man bong is weak. we use it to deflect and always use stance shifting when performing it. However, the bong of other lineages, or even the “chook kiu bong” or forced bridge bong of Yip Man style is more effective. Is this what you mean when saying that the bong and biu are the same? They go in opposite directions!!! unless of course, you’re referring to the chook kiu bong…which is stationary and rigid. That works more against hooks then the normal bong
as i said in my first post the answer depends upon your stage of training and understanding of Wc concepts.My bong is never rigid.the strength or weakness of the bong depends upon the type of energy being projected through the bong.The more rigid or firm the bong the easier it is to take advantage of.Bong and bui are the same.bend a bui you get a bong staighten a bong you get a bui.some perform bong with a forward energy,some spiral some just through it up.some use a bong that is weak but most dont understand the usage of such a bong.collapsing bong is fairly advanced ,many use it to much or dont really understand when it is needed.
I never block so using a bong against a round punch is not something i would do.like most i did use it or something similiar when first starting out in WC.A hook punch is very tight and unless you were using a kup type movement a bong would never stop one or even cover against one.
Ill put in my two cents…
Basically, wing chun is used for fighting, plain and simple. We practice what we use, and use what we practice. The only way a movement is not effective or efficient in my eyes, is when the practitioner is lacking in understanding and skill of that particular technique.
Im sure this probably has been said once already, as many of the people on this forum are in fact sifu’s and are knowledgable with what they do, but the bong sau, as I understand it can be used for both offense and defense, it can recieve and it can escort. The key is knowing when and how to use it.
For example, we’ll use the boxer who punches and pulls back correctly. There are two things that can happen:
As he punches to your hoi mun, you would use chor ma and bong sau, recieving the punch you move directly into lap da. This is a successful usage of the technique.
OR as he punches and you receive with bong sau, intending to use bong lap da…but when you realize that the punch is already starting to retract…you simply change the intention of the bong into an escorting motion, following the punch in and pinning it with what was the original lap sauing hand, while simultaneously using hoi faan kuen with what was the original bong sau hand thus applying simultaneous attack and defend concept.
This to me, seems like a fairly simple affair of simply understanding energy and how your techniques interact with it.
Train hard.
“From one thing know ten thousand” - Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings
[This message was edited by Vankuen on 08-17-01 at 07:46 AM.]
[This message was edited by Vankuen on 08-17-01 at 07:47 AM.]