In my youth, I trained Tang Soo Do for a year, and except for some of the kicks and the way they were executed, IMO it was more a Korean version of Shotokan karate than anything else, except it was less fluid. This was also true of his black belts that I saw. The teacher I studied under was one of the first TSD teachers in the U.S., the late Jong H. Lee. It’s often said that TSD has aspects of northern kung fu but, TBH, I really didn’t notice characteristics of northern styles at all, except for maybe some of the circular and spinning, straight-legged kicking techniques. Besides, there is a lot more to northern kung fu systems than just kicking. I realized there were very, very few similarities to northern kung fu when I later studied and observed many northern styles in Taiwan.
I can’t speak for TSD but ITF was most certainly Shotokan. Being history has surfaced and become accepted knowledge it is no longer a guess.
[QUOTE=Jimbo;1298430]In my youth, I trained Tang Soo Do for a year, and except for some of the kicks and the way they were executed, IMO it was more a Korean version of Shotokan karate than anything else, except it was less fluid.[/QUOTE]
Well, the translations of the characters for TSD are Chinese Hand Way.
Same as for karate before it got changed to Empty Hand Way.
[QUOTE=-N-;1298435]Well, the translations of the characters for TSD are Chinese Hand Way.
Same as for karate before it got changed to Empty Hand Way.[/QUOTE]
And Koreans also had the term Kong Soo Do (in Mandarin, pronounced Kongshoudao, “empty hand way”). Which are Korean and Chinese ways of saying Karate-do.
Koreans have a history of omitting or outright denying any historical connections modern KMA have to Japanese martial arts, even though “Korean” arts such as TKD, TSD, Hapkido, etc., originated with Okinawan or Japanese arts. In the 1972 movie ‘Hapkido’, it’s described as coming from Chinese chin-na and Taiji. But in reality, that would be true (for chin-na, not Taiji) only so much as those methods might have influenced Daito-ryu Aikijutsu, the true original source of Hapkido. Any Taiji influence would have come later.
‘Hapkido’ is the Korean pronunciation of ‘Aikido’; the Chinese characters are identical. The name Hapkido was likely started in Korea in the 1950s, well after Ueshiba changed the name of his art from Aikijutsu to Aikido, and after Choi Yong-Sool had already returned to Korea and begun teaching Daito-ryu. This was clearly no coincidence. Both Ueshiba and Choi had studied Daito-ryu under Takeda Sokaku. Choi had been Sokaku’s servant. Obviously, teaching a Japanese art in post-war Korea would have been bad for marketing. Later, of course, Hapkido evolved in its own direction with added kicks, strikes and some weapons. That doesn’t negate its common root with Japanese Aikido.
That Tang Soo Do was based on, or at least mostly influenced by Japanese/Okinawan karate is undeniable. One needs only to observe it. The same with TKD, at least the older versions of it. The aptly-named WTF have been distancing TKD more and more from its Japanese origins with their emphasis on Olympic TKD. And in the process they have destroyed much of the quality, which has been dropping steadily over the decades.
It’s claimed in some TKD literature that TKD is at least 2,000 years old; many even claim 5,000 years old!! Which is complete rubbish.
Anyway, sorry for taking this thread way off-track.
Invented in the 1950’s. Clearly it is 2000 years old. Choi was a Shotokan Black Belt before seeing a drawing of some Korean cartoon kicking in the air and title Taekkyeon. It is believed he channeled ancient spirits through his practice of the Golden Flower that he learned from some German writer guy. Yeah, it was Shotokan. By the way, go to the drive in theater thread and one can watch some decent Shotokan fight scenes in Kill or be Killed. Stan Schmidt choreography. He was also in the film.
Korea was just ****ed Japan owned them. By the way, Mas Oyama was Korean for those not aware of that fact.
[QUOTE=boxerbilly;1298450]Invented in the 1950’s. Clearly it is 2000 years old. Choi was a Shotokan Black Belt before seeing a drawing of some Korean cartoon kicking in the air and title Taekkyeon. It is believed he channeled ancient spirits through his practice of the Golden Flower that he learned from some German writer guy. Yeah, it was Shotokan. By the way, go to the drive in theater thread and one can watch some decent Shotokan fight scenes in Kill or be Killed. Stan Schmidt choreography. He was also in the film.
Korea was just ****ed Japan owned them. By the way, Mas Oyama was Korean for those not aware of that fact.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, Choi Hong-Hi, founder of ITF, had reached the level of 2nd-degree black belt in Shotokan while he was in Japan.
And yes, Mas Oyama was indeed Korean. Also surnamed Choi(!).
Founder of Hapkido: Choi Yong-Sool.
Founder of ITF TKD: Choi Hong-Hi.
Founder of Kyokushinkai karate: Choi Yeong-Eui (a.k.a., Mas Oyama).
Many famous (and not so famous) Korean MA teachers had a tendency to build bizarre, fanciful cults of worship around themselves. That continued all the way into the 1990s or so. I don’t know if that stuff is still going on; the popularity of MMA seems to have mostly killed that off, or put a big damper on it.
Greetings,
The 'Shotokan" that the Koreans learned in Japan appeared to have maintained more of its Chinese flavor. The maxim, “The hands (arms) are like two doors” was clearly manifested in their sparring up until the 1980’s. Which isn’t to say their hands sucked.
mickey
Hi Mickey,
ITF was at most 60-40 feet-hands and it was probably a lot closer to 50-50 then most realize. I was around when there was a crossing over into sine wave. So I learned both and preferred torque. Funny, I just sent a mutual friend a vid and towards the end it highlighted TKD becomes more circular as one advances.
Excellent points, Jimbo!
Pertaining to Choi, founder of Hapkido, he was taken to Japan by his Japanese overlords and was a 'servant" in the Takeda household. Koreans were looked upon lesser beings by the Japanese as lesser beings and it is rare to find any description of Choi as anything other than a servant in the Takeda house. Somehow, he picked up some ty[e of foundation to make Hapkido a name to be recognized. When
[QUOTE=mickey;1298475]Greetings,
The 'Shotokan" that the Koreans learned in Japan appeared to have maintained more of its Chinese flavor. The maxim, “The hands (arms) are like two doors” was clearly manifested in their sparring up until the 1980’s. Which isn’t to say their hands sucked.
mickey[/QUOTE]
To Clarify:
The late Masatoshi Nakayama may not have been the only student of Gichin Funakoshi to travel to China to study. And what they brought back, the Koreans may have learned. For example, Kyokushin maintains a circular blocking system. Both Kyokushin and early Tae Kwon Do maintained hand usage associated with the Hook Hand seen in northern styles (I am the first to write this).
mickey