But it is not the origional ShaoLin style?
What I have seen says no, but am I wrong?
sorry not exactly what I wanted to say.
You said they teach their style unique to Shaolin, but what I gather has Wu Shu undertones. Are they teaching the origional style of the Shaolin Temples?
original shaolin style?
I don’t think anyone actually teaches that.
Kind of hard to find out what they were doing in teh Tang dynasty afterall except for maybe a picture or two.
What they do have that is somewhat old-ish is teh large and small red fist sets and their taizu sets as well as the through teh back boxing.
they have all sorts of wushu stuff as well and plenty fo grueling conditioning exercises etc etc.
what is learned in the wushu guans around the temple isn’t the same curriculum as what the 40 or 50 wuseng learn and practice.
anyway, check out the ezine and Gene has put together a few articles about modern shaolin.
in short, no one can claim having “original” anything. the shaolin certainly don’t.
Modern Shaolin. That is a good way to say what it is. Wu Shu is mainly what it is with hints of the traditional art that once existed in the Temples. In the past each Temple had its own “flavor” of art now like everything else in China is standardized. The Shao Lin was different in each region and evloved into what it was in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s.
There are still teachers alive that left China when the Monks of both Shaolin and Tao were slaughtered and still teach these styles, they are few. They only teach a limited student base and are very traditional in their teachings and acceptence of students.
The Shao Lin Temple schools that are now open, have open enrollment, anyone who is willing to pay can come study. It was very difficult to be taught in the temple schools in the past. Only the deserving and most dedicated were allowed to learn the arts of Shao Lin. Orange robes, shaved heads, they are monks yes and I’m sure make great sacrifices to their cause I mean no disrespect to the monks, just the marketing sponsored by the government of China. Through movies and TV shows, the public has been taught what Shao Lin Monks look like (in the 70’s if you had a shaved head and an orange robe you were in an airport handing out poppies), but the system they are teaching is mainly Wu Shu. A beautiful art, great exercise and a fine future Olympic sport. They sould honestly market what they are teaching as should other schools. With all the crap out there claiming Shao Lin, I would rather my child or loved one take from these guys too, however they should call it what it is.
I take it you’ve been there on a study program and are familiar with the wuseng?
I have to disagree with your take on the temple, although it does sound like you are talking about teh various wu shu schools that have set themselves up all around teh temple, and which many have been moved away now.
there are very few actual “warrior monks”.
I agree, wushu is all the rage, but I think you are speaking someone elses opinion of what shaolin is? what else would it be but modern? It can’t be what it was 500 years ago anymore than your church would go back to what it was 500 years ago.
It is first and foremost the seat of Ch’an buddhism, everything else comes after that no matter what it has morphed in and out of over time.
Have you read Meir’s book? Any of Gene’s stuff? Visited Russbo? For me, these are pretty much the final word on teh topic in regards to what we know here in teh west simply for a few reasons.
Meir studied there intensively to write his book and analyzed, translated and interpreted and cross referenced all available materials on the subject.
gene is a lay disciple to the order as it is today.
russbo.com is run by another guy who has spent extensive amounts of time there.
I don’t give much credence to the opinions that come from KMT based schools of thought in regards to Chinese martial arts because that perspective is tainted.
I also don’t give much credence to people who reiterate what they have been told by someone else who hasn’t actually been to the temple or spent significant time studying what it is they offer.
Also, they still have quite a lot of really good methods despite all teh anti PRC wushu that gets heaped on them despite the fact they do not participate in teh state run wushu curriculum as found in various universities in China.
The thing with shaolin, is that it had different systems, during different time periods. Many times arts would die out at Shaolin, but live on in the local villiges near by, then later come back.
I think today’s Shaolin curriculum represents many systems, that have been prevelant at Shaolin during many different Era’s
The Tong Bei, Tai Tzu material is all early, or Pre Song Dynasty. the Xiao and Da xiao Hong looks like it may be late Song dynasty, or maybe even yuan dynasty at the oldest.
Other sets are from the Ming, and Qing dynasties as well.
I think todays Shaolin is a smorgasboard of everything that has ever been there.
Ya know, I just posted my dissertation on the subject but for some reason I got asked to log in again after I finished writing my post and it got lost. This is sad because I spent some time crafting my response. Which was meant as a reply to Wu LiZhu.
In a nutshell here it is. Wushu simply means martial art and there are two kinds, traditional and modern. What the monks teach today is both, not a blend of the two but both separately. When they perform publicly they often blend the two because this makes it more exciting for the audience. A show that contained only traditonal forms would be quite boring for the average person because traditonal forms don’t usually contain aerials or 720’s. A perfromance is a performance. Are we learning the actual forms from the 1500’s, probably not. Liken it to this, the old whisper in the ear experiment, in a line of 20 people the whisper gets passed on until # 20 gets it and it is something completely different or modified. My master and I have had quite lengthy discussions on why you can see variations in forms between masters. What happens is this. A master somewhere along the line makes a decision to modify a form, maybe he feels like a particular application in the form doesn’t work or is not effective so he either deletes it or adds something to it he feels is more effective. I suspect this has happened in other styles as well that have been around a while.
Are we using techniques from modern wushu in our training? Certainly. Most of the warm ups we do have been taken from Modern because they are effective. The first form we teach is Wu Bu Quan, a Modern Wushu form. We teach this because it is an excellent way to teach the five basic stances, how to move in and out of them (flow) and also speed and power in the begining. Shaolin has a long history of incorporating other styles or complete systems or styles into their system, why should modern wushu be any different? Wu LiZhu is right Modern is very beautiful and requires a high degree of athleticism to do, it is also very fun to do and excellent training. Personally, it enhances my traditional because in training modern it makes me faster and more athletic. My master has never tried to pass off modern as traditional, he always lets us know what we are learning.
A great deal has been said here and in other places about what Shaolin is. Basically Shaolin Temple Martial Arts are very new to us in the U.S. It has only been in the last 10 years or so that the monks have been teaching here. Shaolin has always had its deteractors and always will. Alot has been said about the PRC and Shaolin feeding us crap. I can tell you that none of the monks are being told what they can teach by anyone. Heck, the Shaolin Temple doesn’t even have oversight here. There are a lot of Wushu schools out there that claim to be Shaolin and teach the Shaolin Temple curriculum. Maybe that since Shaolin Temple is here now they have started these rumors as a way to legitimize themselves and discredit what is truly Shaolin so they can stay in business. I know this personally, before I went to train at my Masters school I asked my last Master what he thought about these monks teaching here. His response was that he had a couple of students that went and tried out their class and found out that what they were teaching was just Modern Wushu, that his school was teaching the pure traditional Shaolin Kung Fu. I could have ended it right there, dismissing them and holding what he said as true, but I went and experienced it for myself and I am glad I did. If you want to know about what the monks are teaching, go find out for yourself. Don’t listen to the majority of people who speak of what they think Shaolin is and haven’t been to Shaolin Temple or set foot in one of the monks schools.
The bottom line is this. Shaolin isn’t for everyone. Just like other things in life, we all have choices. The only way for you decide is to go and try for yourself, then you can understand the difference between traditional and modern. Some will like it, some will not, but the most important thing is this: that you find a school or style that you are comfortable with and that fits your needs and desires. With so many schools and styles out there, there is definitely something for everyone.
Ya know, I just posted my dissertation on the subject but for some reason I got asked to log in again after I finished writing my post and it got lost. This is sad because I spent some time crafting my response. Which was meant as a reply to WuZhi.
In a nutshell here it is. Wushu simply means martial art and there are two kinds, traditional and modern. What the monks teach today is both, not a blend of the two but both separately. When they perform publicly they often blend the two because this makes it more exciting for the audience. A show that contained only traditonal forms would be quite boring for the average person because traditonal forms don’t usually contain aerials or 720’s. A perfromance is a performance. Are we learning the actual forms from the 1500’s, probably not. Liken it to this, the old whisper in the ear experiment, in a line of 20 people the whisper gets passed on until # 20 gets it and it is something completely different or modified. My master and I have had quite lengthy discussions on why you can see variations in forms between masters. What happens is this. A master somewhere along the line makes a decision to modify a form, maybe he feels like a particular application in the form doesn’t work or is not effective so he either deletes it or adds something to it he feels is more effective. I suspect this has happened in other styles as well that have been around a while.
Are we using techniques from modern wushu in our training? Certainly. Most of the warm ups we do have been taken from Modern because they are effective. The first form we teach is Wu Bu Quan, a Modern Wushu form. We teach this because it is an excellent way to teach the five basic stances, how to move in and out of them (flow) and also speed and power in the begining. Shaolin has a long history of incorporating other styles or complete systems or styles into their system, why should modern wushu be any different? WuZhi is right Modern is very beautiful and requires a high degree of athleticism to do, it is also very fun to do and excellent training. Personally, it enhances my traditional because in training modern it makes me faster and more athletic. My master has never tried to pass off modern as traditional, he always lets us know what we are learning.
A great deal has been said here and in other places about what Shaolin is. Basically Shaolin Temple Martial Arts are very new to us in the U.S. It has only been in the last 10 years or so that the monks have been teaching here. Shaolin has always had its deteractors and always will. Alot has been said about the PRC and Shaolin feeding us crap. I can tell you that none of the monks are being told what they can teach by anyone. Heck, the Shaolin Temple doesn’t even have oversight here. There are a lot of Wushu schools out there that claim to be Shaolin and teach the Shaolin Temple curriculum. Maybe that since Shaolin Temple is here now they have started these rumors as a way to legitimize themselves and discredit what is truly Shaolin so they can stay in business. I know this personally, before I went to train at my Masters school I asked my last Master what he thought about these monks teaching here. His response was that he had a couple of students that went and tried out their class and found out that what they were teaching was just Modern Wushu, that his school was teaching the pure traditional Shaolin Kung Fu. I could have ended it right there, dismissing them and holding what he said as true, but I went and experienced it for myself and I am glad I did. If you want to know about what the monks are teaching, go find out for yourself. Don’t listen to the majority of people who speak of what they think Shaolin is and haven’t been to Shaolin Temple or set foot in one of the monks schools.
The bottom line is this. Shaolin isn’t for everyone. Just like other things in life, we all have choices. The only way for you decide is to go and try for yourself, then you can understand the difference between traditional and modern. Some will like it, some will not, but the most important thing is this: that you find a school or style that you are comfortable with and that fits your needs and desires. With so many schools and styles out there, there is definitely something for everyone.
[QUOTE=Wu Lizhu;892464]sorry not exactly what I wanted to say.
You said they teach their style unique to Shaolin, but what I gather has Wu Shu undertones. Are they teaching the origional style of the Shaolin Temples?[/QUOTE]
First, welcome to the forums. The question you ask is the core of the debates we have here on the forums regarding “modern shaolin”. There is lots of info out there about modern shaolin. Sha0lin1 basically said it all. Most of what you see the monks doing these dayson the tours or TV is for demos and exhibition. Is there Wushu undertones? Yes of course. Does traditional shaolin still exist? Yes.
Most of what you get out of modern shaolin depends on the practitioner. If you feel that what your learning is just wushu and useless then you have closed your mind and accepted things as it is. If you stick with it long enough you will discover that there is a difference in wushu and traditional shaolin. The Shaolin Temple’s history alone will clue you in as to why the lineage isn’t spelled out and inked like some other styles that have everything recorded nice and neat. There are traditional shaolin forms that are still taught by the monks that are not wushu. I have seen the applications of some of the traditional hand forms and let me tell you its not wushu by any means.
My question is why does one seek to learn the “orginal traditional shaolin” only as oppose to what is taught as modern shaolin? Is one really better than the other? So why can’t “modern shaolin” continue the tradition and build Shaolin Temple back up?
Because the older stuff is vastly more effective, and needs to be preserved more than the modern Shaolin.
Those seeking it understand this, those who would rather steer them away from thier goal, either do not, or are not willing to share.
Yeah but how do you really know that? I understand what you are saying but the point I am trying to make is a lot of people make the claim modern shaolin is “wushu only” when in reality there are people that seek “traditional shaolin” yet they have no idea what they are looking for. I believe one compliments the other. I have no problem learning traditional shaolin mixed with modern shaolin. There are benefits to both.
i think teaching modern wushu is a bad idea it might give shaolin a bad reputation.
[QUOTE=bawang;893213]i think teaching modern wushu is a bad idea it might give shaolin a bad reputation.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think so at all unless someone is teaching modern and telling you it is traditional. As I said in a previous post, and I can only speak for my Master, he does not do this, he tells you if you are learning modern or traditional. The opening of the forms are very different so that is a big tell right there. Wushu is not bad. I used to feel that way too. I was a staunch traditionalist that used to say modern sucks, it has no soul, it is ineffective, etc. But then my Master started to teach me and I really enjoyed it, it was just plain fun to do. Not to mention the athleticism you need to be able to do 540’s and 720’s, butterfly twists, and such. The foundation for modern wushu comes from traditional so there are effective self defense techniques contained in the forms so it is not purely a souless art. But don’t forget, it is a performance art, and that is what it is first and foremost. I don’t think that I have ever heard anyone claim otherwise.