Re: Is this Article Correct about Wing Chun Punches
Originally posted by FIRE HAWK
Is this Article Correct about Wing Chun Punches?
http://www.wckfo.com.au/article_05.html
No.
Well, here is my take on it.
First of all, on the webpage, at the top right hand corner, observe the four Chinese characters that is referred to as “Kuen Yao Sum Fat”. What it means is that “the punch comes from the heart”. This should tell you a lot about the basis of the punch, and that the delivery of an attack (typically referred to in Chinese tradition as a punch) is what you want it to be and is emotion driven.
So, to answer your question, the answer is both “yes” and “no”.
“no” because in typical Wing Chun training, most of the various strikes you see in the pictures are not taught (other than the straight punch, the open palm strike, biu jee, hook, and the phoenix eye punch), and are not part of what one would call the “standard” Wing Chun hand arsenal.
However, “yes” because when a Wing Chun practitioner becomes a highly skilled, advanced practitioner, there would be no limits to the actual application, and the practitioner would be able to use his/her standard hands under any circumstance and in most shapes while conforming to Wing Chun principles.
If you observe closely, the practitioner in the picture does illustrate the important aspects of Wing Chun in the techniques delivered, so hard to count him out. For example, you will see clearly:
“Mie Jarn” - elbow close to the body
“Jung Garn Seen” - centerline focus
“Mai Jee” - the thumbs are ****ed against the hand during open palm strikes
(two examples to illustrate my point)
First of all, on the webpage, at the top right hand corner, observe the four Chinese characters that is referred to as “Kuen Yao Sum Fat”. What it means is that “the punch comes from the heart”.
A translation the web page will perform for you if you run your mouse over the four Chinese characters. Alfredo expounds on this towards the end of the article also.
My si-hing Alfredo del-Brocco is, as usual, correct in all respects with this article.
I’ll go with the ‘yes and no’ as well. Like most things WCK, the practical is ‘yes’, the filler (Siu Lam, destroy all other styles, etc.) who the heck knows and it doesn’t really affect the meat.
I disagree that many of those strikes aren’t historically or traditionally part of WCK. With the exception of the tiger and eagle claw, and phoenix eye fist, I learned all those strikes as part of the generational teachings of my system.
And so did almost everyone else, whether they realize it or not.
Hammer Fist is just a closed-fist Guan Sao. We use them high or low as the most economical expression of Gaun Da.
Back Fist is just a closed fist Tan Sao following the Bong or Fook to Tan trasition and is the most economical expression of Tan Da.
Spade Palm, (Chan Kiu, Chan Jeung) is common, as are the rest of the palm variations.
And you can easily claw or phoenix eye to your hearts content. Just a different bit at the end of the drill. You could also strike with the wrist bone, leopard fist, dragon head, or whatever else you like.
“Just a different bit at the end of the drill.”
Different lineages may have some small variations in their tool boxes! Nothing wrong in that.
The article is correct in it’s essence and that’s the important thing!
Good analogy Rene!..
Hey Rene,
Good post.
In Koo Lo WC we also have a variety of hand shapes.
Standard Punch/Yat Jee Chung Choi (aka Mai Jee Hong Choi)
Hanging Fist/Gwa Choi
Swinging Reverse Line Fist/Biu Choi
Pheonix Eye Punch/Foo Ngon Choi
Swinging Twisting Inward Line Fist/Biu Jee
Lepard Fist/Charp Choi
Hammer Fist/Fu Mei Choi (also used in the Gan Sao’s)
Twin Dragon Fist/Seung Lung Chut Hoi
Etc..
Other than the different shapes for the fists that travel on the Jung Sein most are extensions of the shapes/paths that are already in the art. Also, when you add these up you will have:
Straight, Over and Under angles, Straight with side power, Swinging with opposite side power, Reverse or Back Swinging and Out to In. Basically:
All this stuff just covers the angles of four corners, straight and back and if its open fist or closed fist it doesn’t matter as long as the Path is understood for us. Also, if you have the Ging then any part of your body is a weapon!
Regards,
Hi Jim,
Good summary of the hand’s angles! I’m curious on how do you train or develop the ging from your Koo Lo system for the fists above?
Regards,
Interesting
I agree with most of the article. I only have questions about a couple of things. The srtikes I have not been taught in my 3.5 years are the forearm/tiger & eagle claws/hammerfist/backfist.
I am aware that Pan Nam(sp?) WC teaches the claw. We do attack the throat but we go for the gap in your trachea with the thumb and first finger which seems to fit nicely. From a structural standpoint, I was taught that the backfist is not as structurally sound due to bone alignment, as the vertical fist and that’s why our particular kwoon doesn’t teach it but I have seen others that do. The only hammer fist I ever learned was when I started and was working on self defense as a defense against the headlock. But then again, my Mantis brothers use the hammer fist and back fist pretty effectively although they have different principles they employ- **** bugs. 
So, are the hammer/back fist bits structurally sound for the WC drill? and how so? Thanks.
Jim, I’m also curious about the Koo Lo ging generation.
Hello Paul & Shadowboxer!
Ging starts from the beginning with our solo sets. Once the body can stay aligned in a comfortable way we then begin to understand the path of which the force is issued. So, when one practices the San Sik of Leung Jan they are beginning to develop the appropriate Ging that comes along with that stage of training. Each stage may have a different expression of Ging or attribute to focus on. Do not under-estimate the importance of solo practice!
Second would be the Wall Bag. Hiting the wall bag (or relaxing into it with body force) with your different methods indeed teaches you how your body is supposed to issue the force and maintain a relaxed stable positioning.
Third would be the Jong. Just open your closed fist methods (or pad the jong) and you will continue the process. Like I said; Fist open or closed really doesn’t matter so the Jong is a great place to apply the open hand versions of the Ging patterns. The tight springy feel of the Jong can help you feel whats going on!
Two man sets. Repitition of the core Ging patterns will be enhanced when partner sets are regularly practiced (as they are built into some of them). Leung Jan taught different sets and my Sifu often explained to me that the two man sets certainly not only help the feeling but develop the Noi Gung.
Now! All this stuff may sound all too familiar since its all basic WC. Yet! There are certain things that must go on when all this stuff is being trained otherwise the desired results will not be there! The body is not locked in one place while the hands move (once you have passed the basic level of training)! An internal Raising and Sinking is also taking a major role in the process! Also, the body opens and closes like a spring coiled and opened which not only adds the twisting power to everything but also Wing Chun’s Tendon changing.
I have only witnessed a few people that focus on this sort of stuff, and one indeed can fight without it, but once I learned about it I found a huge difference in my growth and found a deeper love for what I do.
Regards,
Thanks, Jim. I like your stuffs. At our kwoon, the Ging is much improved and optimally developed in the pole training.
Regards,
Hey Paul!
Thanks, Jim. I like your stuffs. At our kwoon, the Ging is much improved and optimally developed in the pole training.
Thanks a lot! To be honest I did not get the body stuff until I learned the pole either! Once you pick up the pole you tend to learn how to throw your power/ging much more! In Koo Lo WC there is an exact relationship of the hands to the strokes of the pole! The pole ends up being your fist teacher as well as a simple weapon! hehehe
Also, with the empty hand if you study the keun yau sum faat you will also find the best way to throw your ging but it all must be done in a subtle way!
I have to run but nice speaking with you!
Regards,
Hi Jim , Rene and you other guys
Good answers to what i was wondering about these punchs . Jim I understand about ging in Southern Mantis but I was wondering for along time how ging works in Wing Chun , I understand some of what you are saying about ging in Wing Chun but is the ging in Wing Chun similar to the way ging is used in Southern Mantis ?
Hammerfists
Anyone who thinks hammerfists aren’t in WCK ought to practice their knife form again. Then consider that not only the blade, but the butt, guard, flat, hook, point, etc. are all legit striking surfaces.
Then do the knife form again without the knives, striking with with the imaginary butt of the nonexistent knife.
Hammerfists everywhere.
Horizontal backfists to my mind have almost identical mechanics to the side palm strike. Some claim they have no power, but having seen one of my mentors regularly break eight sturdy Aussie roof tiles with one, I assert such claims are the result of ignorance. There may be some validity ot the structural weakness thing, but then the vertical fist isn’t exactly a lump of stainless steel either. And if that’s a criterion, I’d say the hammerfist is definitely more powerful than the vertical fist.
Actually I agree that while the description of strikes in the article is sound, the historical assertions can be challenged, as can those of everyone on this board - Rene, Hendrik, HFY, Robert Chu, etc etc. Anyone annoyed by that last statement might remind themselves that Benny Meng and Alfredo have collaborated on historical articles before.
Alfredo can be pretty forthright at times, but then he has walked the walk as well as talked the talk.
Hammer fist
We use the hammer fist in our kwoon particularly the spinning hammer fist.
This practice is done more to train the spinning backfist defence (teaching good defense vs good technique), however when it rips down at 45 degrees after the spin IMO it way more powerful than when the arm is more on the horizontal and delivering the blow with the knuckles rather than the hammer end of the fist.
The forearm is also a nice one to the side of the neck area which leads into some handy chokes and leg sweeps.
Pesonally I like Alfredo’s stuff, but then again I’ve always been of the approach that more is better with respect to technique.
Fire Hawk,
Good answers to what i was wondering about these punchs . Jim I understand about ging in Southern Mantis but I was wondering for along time how ging works in Wing Chun , I understand some of what you are saying about ging in Wing Chun but is the ging in Wing Chun similar to the way ging is used in Southern Mantis ?
The two arts are similar animals (no pun intended) but totally different! One uses a harder bow and the other uses more of the Zhuang posture. Both strive for the whole body power but they arrive at it thru different mechanics. Mantis uses the Dip Gwat Gung and other aspects to throw power while WC has its roots in the Kuen Yau Sum Faat. Mantis is indeed a bit harder and has two man sets to develop their Structural Power in a sort of Isometric way (Tsai Shu) while WC does not advocate that sort of development. I only have a brief ammount of experience with the South Mantis but still maintain contact with my old sifu who is now in China doing more research on the art, but I do not feel people who do WC should practice Mantis and vice versa. It takes a lifetime to truly master the essence of either art and both have their own path! A skilled master in either art would be dangerous!
Regards,
vertical hook punch
Re - Alfredo’s vertical hook punch.
Is there anyone out there who has trained this technique?
Why does the fist remain vertical instead of horizontal like a boxing hook?
IMO the structure of the hand doesnt look good, especially for heavy bag work as I can see it being more prone to wrist flexure and injury.
I’m sure Alfredo has his reasons for doing it this way, but I cannot see any advantages. 
Can someone else offer their opinion?
One day I’ll get up to QLD and check it out for myself.
Just looked at the photos without reading the article: Nothing wrong with any of the moves, though some would be more practical than others.
namron
I could be wrong but in SLT after the gum saos-lan saos- the returning fak saos are one place the vertical hook punch is
(oy gaat kuen-I think). I wouldn’t train it on the heavy bag though. I’ve learned it as a counter to someone lop-faking and stepping in deep, you catch the (R)arm as you toy ma out of the way with your left, which could break/hyperextend the arm. They try to save by stepping around to face you again. As they do this, you use the hook punch turning back into them with your right arm. Hope that helps.
Re: Hammerfists
Originally posted by anerlich
Hey i go to class with shadowboxer.
Horizontal backfists to my mind have almost identical mechanics to the side palm strike. Some claim they have no power, but having seen one of my mentors regularly break eight sturdy Aussie roof tiles with one, I assert such claims are the result of ignorance. There may be some validity ot the structural weakness thing, but then the vertical fist isn’t exactly a lump of stainless steel either. And if that’s a criterion, I’d say the hammerfist is definitely more powerful than the vertical fist.
The point i aways got with regaurds to the 'backfist" is that at the point we are most likely to use it, it’s power is based in speed, and not in the ‘ging’ that the position allows. If by the side palm strike you mean a “fak sao” type hit, then arent you ignoreing the wrist motion that moves the palm sideways? Or is that what you mean by ‘almost’ identical