Twice this year I’ve heard it said that training spm is bad for you in the long term.
One of the reasons I train it is for health…
Does anyone have any knowledge to share on this?
The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
– Hong Kong Phooey
Could be true
With southern kung Fu - especially southern praying mantis, the hand conditioning exercises are bad for your long term health.
Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com
Conditioning
The type of conditioning that you do in Southern Mantis is unlike the conditioning in Karate or Takwondo where the skin is built up over the knuckles and legs to deaden the pain. Mantis practitioners retain soft subtle skin almost like in Tai Chi where the bones/marrow is strengthened from the inside out and not the outside in. But this is just how I understand it and I could be wrong.
All the negativity of SPM flamewars accumulates and has a negative effect on your health 
Seriously though, I’d never heard that. Isn’t Ip Sigung in his 80s and taught a seminar here last year?
“Weapons are the embodiments of fear,
the wise use them only when they have no choice”
Lao Tzu
OK…bagua is supposed to be good for your health, right? But Dong Hai Chuan died with a major eye-disease that left him blind, one of his student too, and one other famous direct student died of cancer (I don’t have the name right now but I will get it if you want).
Don’t get me wrong, I started training bagua a year ago and I love every bit of it…it’s just that I think some connections shouldn’t be made, as health is a complex thing we don’t understand…and since I assume you don’t spend all your time training (if you are, lucky you!), there are many exterior causes that can influence your health either way…I doubt that a style like SPM would have been passed on without warning if it were so obvious all the guys training hard in it had health-related problems…and I’m sure you can find many SPM that live well and train until old…Also, a fork is pretty useful…but if you stick it in your eye instead of in your mouth it hurts…this silly image is just here to remind that it’s not what you train but how you train it that could be dangerous…
These were my two euros…
Phoenix
I have no idea what the problems might be. Maybe the hard chi gungs of spm can stress your organs if performed incorrectly or something like that.
My own experience and observation is that there’s no harm if done correctly.
GM Ip Shui is 90 and, last I heard, still kicking ass. He was in supergood shape when I saw him in '99.
Glad that nobody knows a reason to avoid spm! 
The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
– Hong Kong Phooey
hi david!
it all depends on the medicine, healing methods and chi kung that is taught. hitting your body can be bad if no medicine is used and proper teaching of conditioning.
southern mantis is very big on this, who are you training with? sifu whitrod? ip sui? sifu tony leung?
hope this helps
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Hi FT
I train in South-West England with Bill Spraggs and Rob Dawkins (they aren’t famous or anything) under Paul Whitrod. Bill and Rob have trained under Tony Leung previously. Sometimes, Paul comes down to see us.
For a time, I trained under Ip shui’s son, Ip Chee Keung but he doesn’t come this way any more.
We use Paul’s dit dar jow.
The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
– Hong Kong Phooey
BM, CGTL, YKM & LP bad for your health
This is what I’ve heard:
The related styles Bak Mei Pai, Leung Pai, Yau Kung Moon and Chu Gar Tong Long being bad for your health. Because of the ‘shrimp back’, in & out of chest movement.
Some styles in HK referr to the accident in the 80’s at a full contact bout in which a BMP contestant died. And they referr to the age of many of their practitioners. Not reaching the 80-100 level what you see with Hung Gar practitioners.
I’m truly a Hakka Style lover, don’t let this be misinterpreted! Fighting tactics, excertion of force are just top of the range.
Ling
I’m not very informed well about hakka arts…but the chest in and out is a major way of issuing power in white crane…only this styles uses also the waving and relaxation of the spine (whipping power)…do SPM also use these kinds of movements? If they do, then why white crane has a good reputation of longevity (in fact, the cranes are often symbols of longevity for China) while SPM has the reputation of harmful practices…
Nevertheless, if “shrimp back” means a rounded and tensed back with only the chest (scapular belt) issuing power by whipping, then I imagine there could be problems here…anyone could enlighten me?
Phoenix
maybe, maybe not!
g/master ip sui is 88 yrs old, i think chow fook sifu lived in his 80’s or 90’s. i dont know story about the bak mei pai dying in hongkong can you tell us please! my sifu passes away at 72 of bowel cancer, not from the tung to, or hum hung batt boy postures.
when practising the ging, if the head isnt sitting the correct way and teeth arent clenched properly, you can suffer head aches. if you eat well and live a good life, drug free etc, you will live longer..still i would like to know if any damage is done through this training!!
look at aust rugby league they take bigger hits then any kung fu man, these guys live ok, unless they hit the grog after retiring!! 
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YOu mean if you eat them then maybe.
“Always be ready”
Fiercest Tiger
The contest was held on Sept. 30 1979 in Hong Kong. A student of Lama Pai, Lam Shum Shun (20), ‘killed’ a student of BMP, Chan Ming Tak (17).
These (sanshou) contests were held regularly and had there beginnings 10 years before.
Ling
Regarding longevity there was a mistaken idea that Ip Shui’s master Lau Sui died in his early 40’s. He actually lived to 76 or 78. Lau Sui’s name is associated with Chu Gar style even though Ip Shui renamed it after succession.
The “shrimp back” could easily cause you harm. I reckon I could rupture my own organs through bad application of technique. We are taught to apply the force of breath and ribs gently for a year before adding any power. This is so correct alignment is learned first.
The spine is kept quite straight even in the most apparently curved situation. The head is back and the buttocks tucked, anus lifted, pelvis rotated. The curvature is exaggerated by having the shoulders thrust so far forward (for extra reach).
In my taiji class, the teacher thought I had shoulder problems because they wanted to go forwards all the time. They still do. It took a lot of effort in taiji to get them back but, anyway, I don’t train that any more.
That’s all I got time for now…
The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
– Hong Kong Phooey
ling
thanks for the info, i wonder what teachnique the lama dude did on the bak mei guy???
17 years old, i guess he didnt have much bak mei practice to go out and fight..what im saying pretty young for fighting in a bak mei style, unless he started at 7 yrs old!!
thanks again!
oh! was he a cheung lai chun student? was clc alive at that time?
come & visit us!
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fiercest tiger
Chan Ming Tak was 17, but in those days you could enter such a contest in this age. He had a young BMP sifu.
I met Lam twice. Lam Shum Shun’s sifu was, if I can recall, called Lo. He also studied under a high ranked Taekwondo master.
He killed his opponent with a right round kick, and because he started with a faint the initial block was low.
This is al the information I can share with you.
The ‘shrimp back’ coupled with improper breathing is very dangerous.
Ling
True
Ling
“This is al the information I can share with you.”
Well obviously! it is unlikely that his opponent can share with you his side of the story!
Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com
Ego Extraordinaire
What can you share with us?
Do you have some real live accounts to tell us, or are you just one of these computernerds that can only play Kung Fu Games in stead of playing the real thing.
Ling
Gin Foon Mark’s health
Hello
I have been training with Gin Foon Mark for almost 12 years {although I dropped out for a while}.
He is 73 and still in great health. He still teaches and is not at all ready for retirement.
His hands are unusually soft and warm to the touch and he is still untouchable in terms of his skill.
Not to bad for a guy that’s 73 and diabetic.
I can say personally that I had a bad case of carpel tunnel in both hands. So bad in my right hand that at one point I could hardly hold a pencil. After a couple acupuncture treatments and some basic som bo dan movements my hands were back in shape in about two weeks and have been fine ever since. The hand movements of SPM actually helped my carpel tunnel.
After over 11 years in SPM I have never seen anything personally to suggest that it is bad for one’s health.
Rich
Hey David,
I train with Paul Brennan in Australia (Chow Gar) and have had this conversation before. Incorrect training of chi kung can cause problems but the main one is body conditioning when the student isn’t ready for it. There is one particular well known SPM school (not Chow Gar) here that trains regardless of these factors and the rapid aging of the students becomes evident after a few years. If your school is under the guidance of GM Ip Shui and his son, I wouldn’t worry about it. Most of the Chow Gar guys I’ve seen age very well and stay remarkably healthy and strong until very advanced ages.