Internal, External, Peng, Spirals, Psychic Powers, Structure and Philosophy.....

Ok…here we go…

I’ve noticed that there seems to be two camps on the side of the internal and external debate.

One that believes that “internal” refers to some psychic, philosophical, meditative or spiritual aspect. In this sense any martial art including karate could be “internal.” If I focus my whole intention on what I’m doing and really “get into” what I’m doing then under this definition any art can be “internal”. For that matter ANY activity can be “internal.”

The other camp sees “internal” as a merely a different kind of body mechanic than “external arts”. A “dynamic self stretching” excercise. One that depends on spiral movements, both in the arms and in the torso. Its goal is to create a springy type of energy different than the stiff energy of the “external arts.” You are essentially making your body into a spring.

So how can there be such a large difference in the perception of what internal means?

It think that this is largely due to cultural and temporal differences. Taiji has essentially been taken out of the language and culture it was in and placed into Western culture.

This has especially created confusion concerning the meaning of the classic Taiji texts.

For example in the classics is states that the “waist” is the key to all movement. In a western culture we wear our pants directly above the hip but in ancient china the pants were worn much higher up around the middle!!!

So if we can’t even know what they mean by the waist how can we unravel ideas like mind-intent, spirit, chi, doubleweightedness etc.

For example, from our metaphysical standpoint we think of the spirit residing in the head when the ancient Chinese saw it as residing in the center of the body near the heart.

The classics are made more confusing by references to Chinese medical theories.

Even many Chinese practitioners are confused by temporal differences. The concept of double weighting for example uses an old Chinese character which could have multiple meanings.

What’s the point of my rant?

Internal and external are different ways of moving, not different ways of thinking. You can think however you want about your art but it will never be “internal” in the sense of an “internal art.”

Internal arts are not mystical. Much of what seems mystical is really just another way of moving. They don’t require any belief in anything that is other worldly. Meditation may be a key to body awareness but please don’t believe that it will allow you to shoot “laser beams” out of your palms.

The ancient masters used terms that were available to them but they are utimately very confusing when taken out of there context (even sometimes within there context.)

My suggestion to everyone is that as you learn Taiji learn to read Chinese and learn about about the culture that the classics were written in. Then you can go back to the original texts and decipher the meaning for yourself.

“Even many Chinese practitioners are confused by temporal differences. The concept of double weighting for example uses an old Chinese character which could have multiple meanings.”

“My suggestion to everyone is that as you learn Taiji learn to read Chinese and learn about about the culture that the classics were written in. Then you can go back to the original texts and decipher the meaning for yourself.”

if native Chinese readers can get it wrong or misunderstand it, how is it that some one learning the language would be able to decipher the meaning?

Great post Fupow,even if the title is duanting as all hell.
I sort of agree I think people jumped on these words as ways to explain themselves out of situations.
What gets me is originally when I was first introduced to the Neijia through taichi I was constanctly told of the big 3 and there differences to say Karate.However as more and more styles are transmitted (for lack of a better word )fully,I often come across practioners of a style utilizing internal principles.eg Pak mei,Yiquan/TaiKiKen,tongbiquan.This can be put down to the west not being exposed to these stlyes in the way that Taichi was promoted over here.And also our lack of reseach/interest in considering other options.
got to go

Fu-Pow

I know you probably hate my posts but if you dont mind me trying to clarrify it all up for you.

First of all, there are two disctinct sections of what we call internal. And you have pin-pointed both quite clearly. What is the mechanical side of it, and the other is the subtler meridian body system. Although on the surface, they suffer from duality, in fact they are closely connected and not so different.

Let me begin by looking at the so called “internal”.

One that believes that “internal” refers to some psychic, philosophical, meditative or spiritual aspect. In this sense any martial art including karate could be “internal.” If I focus my whole intention on what I’m doing and really “get into” what I’m doing then under this definition any art can be “internal”. For that matter ANY activity can be “internal.”

This statement is in fact incredibly true and you have my utmost respect for saying this. In the very fact, when the teachers told us to pay attention to what we are doing, even in everyday life, it is training the mind in awareness and mindfulness. This way, our every movement, every moment becomes a state of heightened awareness and meditation. This heightened moment of intention is called “samadhi” and the closest translation I know of in chinese is “Yi”. During such a state, two fundamental times no longer exists, and that is of the future and the past, the mind is not scattered and the mindfulness of the abosulte present makes themind focussed without effort, this is important. I find certain teachers do not emphasise enough that focus is not a “desperate craving to feel”, far from it. Focus, is a “merging with”. Such as when I say focus on your palms, I am not saying, try hard as you might to “feel” your palm, but simply place your attention patiently, slowly and peacefully at your palm. When the mind becomes less and less distracted by external influences and coarser sensations, eventually, one will find the palm is simoply scattered with energy.

If one is able to maintain this heightened state of awareness, the practitioner eventually discovers the very awareness becomes attached to fluidity in the body. I avoid the word internal here because I do not want to confuse wth the subject. Some call it internal winds, but call it whatever you want.


The other camp sees “internal” as a merely a different kind of body mechanic than “external arts”. A “dynamic self stretching” excercise. One that depends on spiral movements, both in the arms and in the torso. Its goal is to create a springy type of energy different than the stiff energy of the “external arts.” You are essentially making your body into a spring.

This too is true, and as you clearly stated, different. Of course, it has somethign to do with Chi, for without Chi, you wouldnt be able to move to execute anything, but yes they are in essence different. At least at his course level.

For example, from our metaphysical standpoint we think of the spirit residing in the head when the ancient Chinese saw it as residing in the center of the body near the heart.

As a human being, the indestructable elements are locked in the heart center by a knotted central psychic nerve. This center branches into 8 petals which further extend into the rest of the bodies meridians. This energy center located between the center of your two nipples and about 3/4 ways back to your back in front of your spine. It is not to be mistaken by the Dan-Tien which is about 3-4 finger widths for a male below the navel (1 for a female), and about 3/4 ways towards the back of the body in front of the spine. This “wheel” has 64 petals, at which its utmost, importance is where the “mother” element resides, and where the two breathe channels end up twisting back into the central nerve. Hence, in Chi-Gung, the first lesson is to breathe into your Dan-tien, and discover this energy center.
This is where you mentioned the “waist”.

The classics are made more confusing by references to Chinese medical theories

The reason for this correlation is that when ones mind has become impure, two things happens. The wind is scattered and dispursed, nerves become blocked. Secondly, the most important energy center becomes cluttered and less blissful. Therefore, the connection between physical sicknesses and spiritual wisdom holds so strongly, in all meditative arts.

When ones blockages becomes riped, one manifests as a sickness, an energy imbalance. Death of course, is the ultimate result, and at this time, payment in terms of suffering, and pain, is exchanged for the release of the indestructable drops.

Of course, I wouldn’t say to you, if you broke your arm, go see a Western doctor or eastern doctor, the eastern doctor might not be able to put your bones together the way they were once before. It should all be a matter of worldly wisdom too. But this is beyond this topic, and I trust most people here know this quite clearly.

Internal arts are not mystical. Much of what seems mystical is really just another way of moving. They don’t require any belief in anything that is other worldly. Meditation may be a key to body awareness but please don’t believe that it will allow you to shoot “laser beams” out of your palms

This is the center of your discussion. It is definitely not mystical, but there is a reason when sifu says, practise patiently, and do not be distracted. Let the mind carry the movement, as the movement is the mind. You are really moving what I have been calling “wind” around your body. By merging your mind iwith your hand or legs or whatever, you are moving away from duality and enhancing the control of the winds. Winds are less scattered and the mind heals and becomes instantly more peaceful. Your concentration improves. Everntually your arms become to filled with energy winds, they seem to move on their own as your mind’s intent is. More significantly, you feel strong, indestructable and instantantenously able to transofrm your movements without muscular strain. This is the movement and control of your energy winds.

It is simple, very simple yet so difficult to achieve. Those who have achieve it, show signs of humbleness, more often than not will not talk more than is required (like I am doing here) and will do much to help others without anything in return. They willl value all life forms with kindness and may hit your head for the sake of your progress not for the sake of their anger.

You mentioned that you think that many practitioners of TaiJi should learni Chinese. My personal opinion is that many practitioners of Tai-ji should find a good teacher, and once he does, leave all concepts behind and practise emptiness. Without emptiness, and doubt, craving and hate, the winds will be scattered, and the mind unblissful.

sorry my explanation is long winded and unclear, I do hope it helps you a little.

"As a human being, the indestructable elements are locked in the heart center by a knotted central psychic nerve. This center branches into 8 petals which further extend into the rest of the bodies meridians. This energy center located between the center of your two nipples and about 3/4 ways back to your back in front of your spine. It is not to be mistaken by the Dan-Tien which is about 3-4 finger widths for a male below the navel (1 for a female), and about 3/4 ways towards the back of the body in front of the spine. This “wheel” has 64 petals, at which its utmost, importance is where the “mother” element resides, and where the two breathe channels end up twisting back into the central nerve. Hence, in Chi-Gung, the first lesson is to breathe into your Dan-tien, and discover this energy center.
This is where you mentioned the “waist”. "

Thank you for your response. I can tell from your response that you must be at a very high level of understanding. A couple of questions:

So are you saying that in essence the “waist” as named by the Taiji classics is at the center of the torso? And that this is the main “controller of Chi” or the “spirit” or “knotted psychic nerve”? Is there anywhere I can do more reading about this?One other question. I’ve been getting really painful knots in my back right around the area that your talking about. Is this a bad or good sign?

You mentioned that you think that many practitioners of TaiJi should learn Chinese. My personal opinion is that many practitioners of Tai-ji should find a good teacher, and once he does, leave all concepts behind and practise emptiness.

I agree with you here. However, learning about Chinese culture and philosophy will definitely help you in your journey. Language is definitely a key to this though. Otherwise all your info will be second hand.

Fu Pow

The scope of our own experiences doesn’t necessarily define the parameters of reality you know! Whilst you had made your statement and sought to clarify a much talked about subject, you still like one or two occasions in the past have made some statements which are not really correct, based on presumption. I do not mean for this to be insulting, far from it. However so-called mystical things like levitation, empty force and all that stuff cannot be written off because someone hasn’t experienced it in their life. So when you say that meditation does not permit one to “shoot laser beams” from their hands, I suggest you read the biography of Jetsun Milarepa, any texts on Chang Sang-feng, and others who have acheived credible levels of Mastery in their lives. You may be very surprised at what meditation can acheive, one one so wants these things. The mystical is no longer recognised as mystical when it is known. I like the way how Don Juan Matus was quoted by Carlos Castaneda as dividing up up all reality up into the known, the unknown and the unknowable. Its just stages of comprehension.

You have some valid points repulsive monkey. But remember I never claimed to be a master of anything or to know everything.

I have a very open mind but my mind closes as soon as people start talking about supernatural/paranormal stuff. “Chi” as it applies to TCM or Taiji does not need to be supernatural. Perhaps it is just something that Science has not fully grasped yet.

However, things like levitation and empty force are in direct conflict with the basic laws of physics so the door shuts there…most of these can be explained as “tricks” or hoaxes.

Even most of the Chi Gung “demonstrations” you see out there are hoax.

I’ve been getting really painful knots in my back right around the area that your talking about. Is this a bad or good sign?

Hey Fu-Pow

Becareful, as I said before, a good Chi master knows that much talking (like me) is a waste of Chi. So I am by no means expert in the area (I talk to much…). You need to find a teacher that you can relate to and practise, practise, practise. I only share iwth you because I feel as if you really want to know what Chi is, but have found many hindrances, and I want to help you in the way.

Hmmmm it is so difficult to say what can be causing this pain. It could be anything from a muscular fatigue, to removal of hindrances on the psychic nerves. However, if the pain arises during meditation (or breath retention) then perhaps you might be pushing too hard, or your posture needs to be corrected. Sometimes these are signs of progress, othertimes they are warning signs. Please seek proper advice. The internet is just too lose.

What Repulsive said is very true in my opinion, we are often capped by the possibilities because we too often draw conclusions, but I can tell you have an open mind, and want to see for yourself. I think this is very wise, I hope you find many successes and signs.

Greetings..

Folly.. is to confine the infinite and eternal universe to the limits of our own perceptions..

" I have a very open mind but my mind closes as soon as people start talking about supernatural/paranormal stuff. “Chi” as it applies to TCM or Taiji does not need to be supernatural. Perhaps it is just something that Science has not fully grasped yet. "

Human potential is limited only by self-imposed boundaries and shortsightedness.. Rather than closing your mind, perhaps you can recognize the difference in semantics.. i agree, there is no “magic”, only natural events we don’t quite comprehend yet.. Perhaps, that is what the “paranormal/supernatural” verbage references, just different views..

I assure you i have witnessed events (some MA, some not) that leave no doubt in my own mind that there is a vast uncharted universe of experience out there.. i have witnessed a well known Spiritualist manifest an irridescent gas-like blue orb +/- 4 inches in diameter in the palms of her hands.. tangible and without trickery.. A sincere woman seeking to demonstrate “potential”..

“basic laws of physics”.. Remember, 500 years ago there was quite a different set of “basic laws of physics”.. as our ability to comprehend expands, so do our “laws”.. Change is the universal constant, to set your perceptions in stone is to stagnate.. to dig in your heels and declare that some form or system is “the One”.. is to stagnate.. Our beloved Tai Chi was developed by trial and error, by men and women willing to step out into new experiences.. To take what the originators set in motion and preserve it, is tradition.. to deny that there is no more to add to their humble beginnings, is to stagnate and suffocate the art..

“levitation.. laser beams”.. why not?.. i would rather leave the opportunity open, than close myself off from the unlimited potential offered by such a gracious universe.. Each of us are explorers, some will explore the known, some will explore the unknown, adding to the known..

Hmmm.. should we learn Chinese? Heck, most of us (me included) need to work on our native language.. look at the differing perceptions of simple sentences displayed here.. better, i think, that we learn to communicate our experiences in our own languages such that we can pass it on with our own clarity.. to assume that validity and clarity resides only a culture or language is establishing boundaries that i, personally, wish to avoid.. i do, however, honor past masters and their lineage.. (the Calligraphy is very appealing).. But, Truth is the experience itself.. not the words, labels and judgments we use to describe it..

Yikes.. just noticed the time..
Be well, All…

Fu-Pow, I share a similiar midset as yourself. When I hear about people shooting energy at someone across the room, I do this::wink:

Can it be done? Maybe, I believe anything is possible in this reality, but, those accounts always seem to be from someone who heard or read about some old guy from long ago. The western world has some stories too: Robin Hood, the Green Night, ect. Doesn’t mean they are true.

Now, I have tremendous respect for the old masters as well as the rare few ones around today. Not because of this mysticxal crap, and, the one that I know, and from the ones that I haveheard about, they are insulted by the suggestions of such things.

But with that said, I beleive your equation is missing a major point: Intention, yes, very important. Proper mechanics, also importnant. ENERGY, that is also important and quite different.

The difference is that Wing CHun will swear up and down that they are internal. Compared to what? Even Hung Gar. The tenants of Hung GAr are 100% against internal. The metal rings on the arms, 100% against the goals and aspirations of internal.

Proper breathing and allignment. Take S. Mantis. I respect these guys as fighters. But the way they collapse the chest is unhealthy. My old sifu actually had to get his intestines opened up and had a serious operation. Others look older then they are. Their way puts pressure on the heart.

Ba Gua and Hsing-I – as well as E-Chuan – will control that important territory as well, even bow the back, but the chest is bowed as well – not collapsed. Its subtle, but the untrained eye most likely will not notice it. But the difference? My master as 60 looks like he’s 40, and punches like a 19 yera old on steroids. I’ve seen mantis guys of 50 fully grey with withdrawn faces, almost looking like junkies. They might be good fighters, or were, because force against force works only so much, to a certain age, or even young against a certain sized foe, but then what? What about healthy? What about maintaining and actually upgrading ones foighting with age?

This is a huge differnce.

Hmmm

This thread seems to hold all the ingredients of a healthy balanced thread, which when it comes to these subjects always seems to get out of hand and end up being abandonded. Experience has a lot to said for, and that also accounts for experienceing fakes aswell as genuine articles, to which there is a varying degree of both iun the world. It’s usually the fakes that make money out of these claims and the genuine articles who have save a couple of disciples and remain unamed mostly. My words are not the words of ultimate truth and do not try to convince anywone of what I have experienced but I do respect Tachibob for giving his example. I too have had experiences whixh left no doubt in my limited mind, due to the reasons and conditions under which I witnessed either acts of levitation, empty force, telepathy or even bi-location. I may be a happy fool and live my days telling everyone that what I saw as the truth, no matter how heiniously it breaks the laws of Physics (even scientists know for a fact they aren’t infalible and in reality are just waiting to be broken by science itself at any given chance), but I like a few others remain more to the side of convinced. However I was tricked then, its a poor state for Internal Martial arts, Tibetan Buddhism and spiritualism if this is how they gain trust! Some people ARE genuine, and whether one likes it or not its a fact. There is a difference between fakes and the real mcoy’s sometimes its finer thatn you think, sometimes its just plain obvious!!

Repulsive Monkey-

I have know doubt that their will be groundbreaking and startling discoveries in the next few years in the fields of cosmology and quantum physics. As a human race we have only scratched the surface. But I highly doubt that anyone has reached a level “understanding” about the universe in the same way that western science has. It is foolish to think that the laws of physics are immutable, but it will probably take great expense and technology to break them. It will not be so easy as doing martial arts or meditating.

There are few books out there that make a connection between high level western science and eastern mysticism. But these connections have to be taken at face value. Although the quantum physicist and the mystic may seem to be saying the same thing in actuality it is the constraints of language that make them seem similar, rather than the methodology that was used to arrive at the conclusion.

And while I don’t think science can explain everything in the universe it at least sets the basic ground rules in which we operate. Things like levitation, emptyforce and other paranormal phenomena do not fit with in these ground rules. It may be our perception that they are real. But like the magicians of europe in the middle ages they will eventually be exposed for the frauds that they are. Only when you see someone produce a “glowing ball of energy” in a controlled environment can you make the claim that it is “real.”

Thanks everyone for a great discussion.

“claim that it is “real.”

I think it is very sad when we need science to validate everything under controlled conditions. this would tend to leave out many things in the human condition namely things like self-consciousness, sprit, mind, heart.

Using what is known and accepted can only explain things from a certain viewpoint that we may or may not agree upon. This in itself only makes it real until something is shown otherwise. I don’t think that it negates the possibility of other realities. those that deal in other realities may have no interest in proveing something one way or another they know it.

Many of the threads here deal with human concepts developed by the Chinese culture using a model for the most part is not explored here in the west.

Its funny when they do recognize something like (poly metrics), which many IMA styles have been using since their inception they call it some thing else and claim it as some new advancement. (just using poly metrics as an example in the context of my understanding) same thing with many drugs.

Real, what is real? Something so far out of your reality you may not even be able to see it. Your mind wouldn’t allow it. Witness all the threads on TC the different views and supposed camps of thoughts. Even the beginning of this thread starts with that.

Ideas like Shen,Yi,Chi may be very real and concrete for those that can understand and use these concepts. Others will talk of the right form or weather one should tuck their butt or not, body alignment ect.

I think it all reflects the reality of the person posting, if your not there or haven’t touched it hard to believe or even consider. I try not to view things as right or wrong but more of level and direction. I can only comment on things that I have felt and experienced, and wonder about those that I have not.

Every IMA teacher or couch that has worked with me always was able to project their reality widening my own. They did this by direct experience of what it was or was not. The lesson learned reflects the level of the student.

Some will view it as a mechanical process (alignment ect) others will view it as a mental or mind process (intention, will, ect) the one who can’t feel it cannot have any concept of it and if s/he doesn’t follow the teacher’s advice this aspect will remain closed.

The other can see past the mechanical process and feel what is actually being done.

In the leafs Army days, people used to say “ they can’t do that” the leafs reply was “they can, they will, they do”

again a matter of preception based on level of exprience.

agree good thread many good thoughts. :slight_smile:

There she was just a-walking down the street…

Singing Ooo Wah Ditty Ditty Dum Ditty Doo!

As for Western science.

Personally, I don’t lay too much faith on western science.

As for science testing if “Chi” exists or not, sounds a wee bit strange coming from scientists that take the existence of a Soul, Heaven, God & Devil as a given fact with no scientific proof.

Just something to ponder.

Fu Pow

There is no end to your imbalance is there? I know this will probably sound like an insult but I do mean these things in humour too, but you seem to be really stuck with some of yours ideas, they come across as so stagnant and inexperienced. You say that levitation and emptyforce doesn’t fit into the realms of qhantum physics… guess whats coming?.. so what that really in the real world doesn’t mean a single thing. Can see what I’m gonna come back with? Im just gonna take on your persona for a second or two, quantum physics doesn’t fit in with the methods and laws of levitation/Lin Kong Jin. Now tell which of the two statements sounds the silliest??? Well, naturally they both sound just as biased. The known world and its so-called depedence on western science to pull us out of the Stone age and make us see the light for what it trully is, is such a blinkered view Fu Pow, can you not see that? I do no say that the side I fight for is the way either, but at least I don’t rubbish your area of support, just your stance. Have you equally studied both areas to examine results? Have you tried Qi Gong for a resonablly good length of time, or meditation and then assessed your findings methodically to come up with your results like an good western scientist would??

All I say is in this world we cannot afford to be closed minded. I liked the way in one of Robert Anton Wilson’s books where he states in his own words the 2 most important lessons that The Lord Buddha gave:

  1. Never ever totally believe anybody else’s belief system;
  2. Never ever totally believe your own belief system.

That man’s a genius…

bamboo_leaf

beautiful sob sob

I think it all reflects the reality of the person posting, if your not there or haven’t touched it hard to believe or even consider. I try not to view things as right or wrong but more of level and direction.

wise words :slight_smile:

Have you equally studied both areas to examine results? Have you tried Qi Gong for a resonablly good length of time, or meditation and then assessed your findings methodically to come up with your results like an good western scientist would??

Repulsive Monkey-

It is you that appears to be stuck in a single state of mind. As in the previous thread you have resorted to attacking my base of knowledge. I’m sorry but that is where the conversation ends. You have no knowledge or me as I have no knowledge of you. The internet is a poor medium to discuss such things.

I’ve never represented myself as an expert on the topic of quantum mechanics, TCM or Taiji. All I will say on the topic of my “credentials” is that I have studied these concepts for “a while.”

I do have an “open mind” and my ideas are subject to change, but I need to see a credible and well reasoned argument first. If there are one lesson I’ve learned in my life it is that 1) Bullying people gets you nowhere and 2) you cannot force understanding on people. If you really care for your fellow kung fu brethren then you try to guide them and not lord over them or claim to know more than them. I’d expect that in the main forum but not here.

It is a shame that you insist on ending conversations in this way, when it was just getting good.

Peace

..

i should first say that i didn’t read through all of the posts (mostly because some of them are really long…), but i think i can tackle the problem, or something. this is my favorite topic, anyway.

internal/external are not states of mind, nor body mechanics. if they were anything so simple, would we even be debating about these things? they deal with the manipulation of qi. in my experience, not being biased either toward the “external” styles or the “internal” styles, this is what the main difference is between the two:

both categories use qi, and use it well. both at a normal, good level of proficiency use form to direct qi. now, here it is in a nutshell: internal styles focus on using form to encourage qi flow, which powers the body in order to express itself. external styles encourage qi flow and express it by manipulating the tendons and muscles in accordance to their concepts (i.e. tiger, crane, dragon). neither is clearly better, and great masters from both sides have seemed mystical in their abilities.

is it only me that can see this? are there only a few people on this board that actually experience and manipulate qi as something tangible and normal? right now i am breathing through my feet, sharing qi with the floor as i sit. it’s not that tough, if only people would stop reading and start practicing… it requires constant observation and speculation to get anywhere. if you don’t know what works, what doesn’t, and how you know when it does, how far can practitioners expect to get?

sorry about the rant, but this topic also seems to get me a little worked-up… :frowning:

Greetings..

Perhaps, the reason “butt-tucking” is taught is to correct incorrect postures.. Many of the westerners (me included) developed poor postures is their young years, you know, that “cool” slouching posture.. Whenever we say a “natural” posture, often we must first repair a poorly developed unnatural posture.. just because when we relax we assume a certain posture doesn’t, by definition, make that a natural posture.. just like those that breathe with their chest muscles instead of their abdominals, just because that is what they are used to doesn’t make it “natural”.. Much of the early training for students is reshaping their concepts of “natural”.. before good Tai Chi technique can be executed, you must have the correct “frame”..

I have been taught (and so i also teach) that the shoulders, hips, and ankles should be in vertical alignment when viewed from the side in a Wuji stance.. that the back should be perpendicular to the ground ( actually, aligned with the pull of gravity to minimize unbalanced pull).. this is a neutral position, allowing movement and response in any direction.. The back is treated as the axis/axle around which we rotate our energies.. if this axle is leaning or bent, rotation will wobble or require extra effort to maintain.. to afford the straightest axle with the minimum effort, a slight rotation forward of the hips seems to do the job nicely..

Have you ever been standing too long and had that ugly low-back pain remind you of poor posturing habits?.. try rotating your hips forward and slightly up.. almost invariably the pain is dissipated as you equally distribute the pull of gravity along the spine and open the Ming-men releasing the tension stored there.. This simple exercise is evidence that the spine should be aligned with the pull of gravity.. common-sense… The “S” shape of the spine is constantly compressed by the pull of gravity, putting unequal tension at the extremes of the curves.. the more we refine our stances to straighten and elongate the spine, the more we minimize the tension and associated pain..

“Butt-tucking”, from my experience is not so much an issue of form, as an issue of correcting poor frames so that the form itself will be more correctly expressed..

just another perspective from the Far-side.. be well, all..

oops.. got my threads mixed up.. this should be on “Chi-Huggers and Butt-Tuckers”.. i will copy this there.. sorry:(