# Improving Chi sao tournaments **URL:** \ **Category:** Wing Chun\ **Created:** [November 14, 2004, 12:34pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/improving-chi-sao-tournaments/29852 "2004-11-14T12:34:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 5\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![martyg](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/martyg/32/327_2.png) [@martyg](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/martyg)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 8:42am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/improving-chi-sao-tournaments/29852/21 "2004-11-20T08:42:27Z")
> Originally posted by hunt1 > First a question. In this tournement were attacks to the ehad allowed. Most Sumo Sao matches I have seen have not allowed head attacks. Yes, attacks to the head were allowed. The rules are up at [www.goldeneaglemartialarts.com](http://www.goldeneaglemartialarts.com), just look for the .pdf on Chi Sao competiton rules. > Next Sumo Sao shows poor understanding of Wing Chun and /or poor teaching. It is up to the ref to insist on clean technique. I disagree. It can also show people having a bad day and worried about competition. All the people involved in the chi sao tournament actually all chi sao’d with each other before the tournament. They basicly got together beforehand at the direction of Ed’s student who competed, who thought it might be nice for everyone to roll ahead of time as a way of meeting one another and not worrying about anyone being a “head case”. During all that stuff, I didn’t see anyone do any sumo. The sumo didn’t start until the actual tournament itself and was generally during the first two offense/defence rounds of each match. Likewise, it’s not up to the ref to force people to do clean technique. Besides the fact that everyone’s version of clean and of technique is often different, the ref has enough to watch with regards to enforcing the rules. Likewise I don’t feel that anyone’s performance reflects on their sifu’s teaching (though I’m sure most sifus will disagree with me if their student wins and agree if they loose 😃 ). I think the student’s conduct both before, during and after the match more accurately reflects a sifu’s teachings. > [B] > Tag or not instead of belittling other arts that have been doing competitions for 30 years or so it is best to learn from them. A clean technique coupled with a clean hit = a point. break and start again. What ever you think this is clean ,easy to understand and not open to debate among judges or contestants. [/B] Absolutely not. And I’ve seen it first hand at other chi sao competitions - what’s clean to one is debateable to another. And I completely disagree on the point/break thing. That’s one thing most people hate about the karate “open circuit” type sparring, and the most often heard complaint I hear when talking to chinese martial artists. People have indeed learned from the 30 or so years of other art’s competitions - they learned what they don’t like and don’t want. That’s one of the reasons most chinese tournaments have continuous sparring instead for example, which goes on a continuous exchange rather than point and reset. The last thing you want to do is start moving a chi sao tournament in a point direction. > You want to make it about control instead then remove striking and turn it into a taichi puch hands type of thing. Again clean simple and not open to debate. But it is open to debate. Not everyone views chi sao to be about just hitting and tag. Control is often seen as just as equal an aspect. These tournaments should be about being inclusive to all points of views on the art, not exclusive. To bring together in healthy compeition, not to divide by forcing people to conform to your views in order to perform. That’s one of the reasons for example there were no points kept at this tournament. Each corner judge kept track of the match themselves however they wanted and judged on what they felt was important based on their background. At the end of the match, all corner judges confer and each one states who they felt the winner was and what in each person’s performance they based that off of. Person with the most votes won. And to keep it fair - if a judge had a student in the current match he removed himself from judging that match. Marty [Watchful Dragon](http://www.hanweionline.org/wingchun) ---
**Author:** ![hunt1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@hunt1](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/hunt1)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 4:11pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/improving-chi-sao-tournaments/29852/22 "2004-11-20T16:11:05Z")
To Edward and Marty: IMO you are both wrong in your last posts. The fact that we disagree is proof that Chi Sao competitions are a waste and will be a waste until we can all agree on what they are for and on an objective way to judge them. The key word is objective. Edward the purpose of a DEMO is to show how wing chun trains. The purpose of a competition is to have winners and losers! Now if you have a competition with no awarding of first place etc then fine but that would be a demo not a competition. Marty we are talking about a competition. The goal of a good competion is to have a level playing field. A set of rules and judging that all agree on. Your entire stance is that it is ok to be subjective. The judges used their own criteria to judge. If you have 3 judges from Moy Yat and 1 from TWC will a TWC competitor really get judged fairly. No, because from a subjective basis he probably does Chi Sao in a different way than the Moy Yat judges teach. (this is just an example before anyone gets their boxers in bunch). For a competition to be fair the rules must be objective. The only way to do that is to judge clean hits or clean examples of control. Personally I do not like chi sao competitions. I also dont like point fighting. I also dont push competitions on my students. Some like to compete and they do but we dont do it as a school. They only compete in full contact continuous sparring.Which I think is the best way for those that dont do the physical training necessary for San Shou or other full contact events to compete. ---
**Author:** ![martyg](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/martyg/32/327_2.png) [@martyg](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/martyg)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 7:03pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/improving-chi-sao-tournaments/29852/23 "2004-11-20T19:03:55Z")
> Originally posted by hunt1 > [B]To Edward and Marty: IMO you are both wrong in your last posts. [/B] IMO you’re still wrong and seem a bit narrowed in your views. But I’m not out to change anyone’s views. > The fact that we disagree is proof that Chi Sao competitions are a waste and will be a waste until we can all agree on what they are for and on an objective way to judge them. The key word is objective. The fact we disagree is proof that we won’t see you or your students at a chi sao competition. That’s all. > Marty we are talking about a competition. The goal of a good competion is to have a level playing field. A set of rules and judging that all agree on. Which is what we’ve had. Never had a complaint from any of the judges on anything other than the caliber of some of the compeitors some times. And in fact I’m always asking the judges that participate (and the competitors) if they have any likes/dislikes and suggestions on improving. I guess those that participate will have a voice and those that don’t always sit back and yell the loudest trying to make their voice count. > Your entire stance is that it is ok to be subjective. Nope, wrong. As I said, everything I wrote seemed to go in one ear and out the other because you’re reading what you want in to it. Seems a bit subjective actually. Statements like "These tournaments should be about being inclusive to all points of views on the art, not exclusive. To bring together in healthy compeition, not to divide by forcing people to conform to your views in order to perform. " clearly state my stance and are anything but promoting subjectiveness. You’re mistaking one small aspect of the entire tournament that could be considered subjective (taking place in a person’s mind), as representative of the whole thing being subjective. When if anything the entire process (as with any judging and competition) is a mixture of both. > The judges used their own criteria to judge. If you have 3 judges from Moy Yat and 1 from TWC will a TWC competitor really get judged fairly. No, because from a subjective basis he probably does Chi Sao in a different way than the Moy Yat judges teach. (this is just an example before anyone gets their boxers in bunch). Actually you’re wrong. Because we have a judges meeting before the tournament to discuss common ground on what we all agree are bad things. Leaning forward and shoving, dissengaging, and hoilding with two hands to smother are a few things off the top of my head that are commonly discussed. We also discuss some common good things to look for. What we don’t force is ideas of stance, use of energy, how techniques should look, etc. etc. Those are all things that are exclusive if forced, and chances are each person has very different ideas one those. And regarding your example - if it’s three from one family and one from another, that means there won’t be any people from either family in the ring (since the rules call for not judging your own people) - which again means both comptitors will most likely not be doing the same chi sao as the judges which renders your point moot. Did you actually think your example out, or are you just in rush to prove your point? You seem to want everything laid out and defined in a manner that even non-wing chun people could step in and judge based on “clarity”. I’ve seen that tried before at another tournament where the ref decided only non-wing chun people would judge He felt they were all professionals, they should all be able to judge a good hit, since chi sao “is about hitting”. It was a disaster, half the judges assigned didn’t want to judge because they knew nothing about chi sao. Not to mention the havoc it wreaked with the competitors. > For a competition to be fair the rules must be objective. The only way to do that is to judge clean hits or clean examples of control. And again, your views in the last two posts come off as very subjective. You can’t be objective by forcing people to conform to your idea of what clean hits and control are. It has to be based off of a consensus of everyone present. > Personally I do not like chi sao competitions. I also dont like point fighting. Then we won’t see you at one, and there’s really no point in discussing it with you further. And by the way, coming from a standpoint of not liking them > I also dont push competitions on my students. So is that meant to imply that we do? That’s two different blanket statements so far that can come off as very insulting and untrue. “sign of poor teaching” and “I don’t push competitions”. > Some like to compete and they do but we dont do it as a school. They only compete in full contact continuous sparring Full contact continuous sparring? Do you mean full contact (lei tai, san da, sanshou), or do you mean “continuous sparring” (which is continuous but semi-contact)? I’ve never heard of an event that combined both. If there is, I’d be interested to hear more about it and obtain a copy of the rules. I’m interested in adding more of a general fighting division of that nature for the wing chun people next year rather than forcing them to go in to the lei tai. > .Which I think is the best way for those that dont do the physical training necessary for San Shou or other full contact events to compete. I’m all ears on that. But yes, with full contact competitions you’re definitely talking about stamina and conditioning being a major factor. Marty [Watchful Dragon](http://www.hanweionline.org/wingchun) ---
**Author:** ![curtis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58956e/32.png) [@curtis](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/curtis)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 10:46pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/improving-chi-sao-tournaments/29852/24 "2004-11-20T22:46:03Z")
Hello MartyG I dont wish to call names, (It may give some good people a bad rap.)but you can pull up the info at : [http://www.shaolininstitute.com/great\_lakes\_kung\_fu\_championships.htm](http://www.shaolininstitute.com/great_lakes_kung_fu_championships.htm) It seems thay dont have a copy of the chi soa rules on there web. but I will find a copy. There were other problems… I will leave it there. ---
**Author:** ![edward](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/90db22/32.png) [@edward](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/edward)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 12:11am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/improving-chi-sao-tournaments/29852/25 "2004-11-21T00:11:08Z")
wrong and right To Edward and Marty: IMO you are both wrong in your last posts. The fact that we disagree is proof that Chi Sao competitions are a waste and will be a waste until we can all agree on what they are for and on an objective way to judge them. The key word is objective. Edward the purpose of a DEMO is to show how wing chun trains. The purpose of a competition is to have winners and losers! Now if you have a competition with no awarding of first place etc then fine but that would be a demo not a competition. Your probably in bizzaro land, but I’ll still reply.. If the purpose of demo was to show how wing chun trains, then next time. I’ll do SLT for 1/2 an hour and then chain punch for the next… I’m sure people will find that more enjoyable then watching paint dry. As for a chi sao competition, its designed to have a winner and loser, but at the same time, if properly setup, its to show case the skill of the wing chun art. Marty we are talking about a competition. The goal of a good competion is to have a level playing field. A set of rules and judging that all agree on. Your entire stance is that it is ok to be subjective. The judges used their own criteria to judge. If you have 3 judges from Moy Yat and 1 from TWC will a TWC competitor really get judged fairly. No, because from a subjective basis he probably does Chi Sao in a different way than the Moy Yat judges teach. (this is just an example before anyone gets their boxers in bunch). For a competition to be fair the rules must be objective. The only way to do that is to judge clean hits or clean examples of control. Personally I do not like chi sao competitions. I also dont like point fighting. I also dont push competitions on my students. Some like to compete and they do but we dont do it as a school. They only compete in full contact continuous sparring.Which I think is the best way for those that dont do the physical training necessary for San Shou or other full contact events to compete. [Previous page](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/improving-chi-sao-tournaments/29852.md?page=1)