I understand the issues with opposing teams in Chinatown. (I also was involved in a few dabacles which almost escalated into all out war-ah,the good ol days)Normally, that does not occur these days, as they now assign specific routes as well as an officer to each team. Nowadays, if one guy refuses passage to another team, the fur no longer flies, they revoke their permits and send them home.
It is always made clear to students applying for membership that Lion Dance is part of the curriculum, and that participation-in any way they feel comfortable, so long as they contribute, (heck, they can hand out lai-see fung to the diners) is mandatory.
Ten Tigers, I respect a sifu’s desire to have a traditional school, what I’m getting at is the danger of assuming one can have one outside of the culture of origin and still have all the trappings: it is not possible. The social pressure of the traditional culture does not exist in the sifus interactions with people from a culture with no Confucian influence, and so the sifu is often shielded from losing face for things he should lose face for because there’s often few other Chinese around him or her who are aware of the issues, and those who are are often other teachers and other Chinese who, as immigrants, may not have the option of cutting ties with the sifu.
This is entirely not the same as a similar sort of school in China, and never can be.
Negotiation is a given, whether one wishes to believe they are negotiating the process or not. These mores were never more than a negotiation, and so, in a completely different culture, they will be more so.
edit: Mandatory participation is a business owner’s prerogative. What I take offense to is an earlier poster’s defining the student’s role, a student as “a cancer”. I’m highly respectful of Chinese culture, people who want to step on mine better not have any cultural egg on their faces, and, in the topic of Confucianism, well, there have been some issues historically. We Americans are a bit more lackadaisical about rites, it is part of our culture, and sometimes a good part.
[QUOTE=taai gihk yahn;929141]
to superimpose that mentality onto modern-day US culture is silly: Mike, Dave and myself know exactly what that means, vis-a-vis the looks of complete befuddlement on the faces of the suburbanites who accompanied us on our first (and LAST) Chinatown Lion Dance debacle (~'92?), when we had a little “issue” with one of the local “youth enrichment associations”, all because of the BS mentality surrounding the whole affair;
[/QUOTE]
Prior to that debacle I had lion danced with Sifu Yip and had done it a few years with White Crane under CTS… I was already completely done with it by then…
PLEASE realize that we aren’t Chinese , a school is a VOLUNTARY organization and it is not a “youth enrichment association”…
let me also add, when we perform a Lion Dance, students get a share of the tips, and there is always a festive dinner afterwards-my treat. I always make it as enjoyable as possible, and it becomes a method of bonding between hing-dai. For us, it’s a party.
The problem is, many people have barely enough time to train kungfu. They go to a school to train kung fu, then, lo and behold, if they don’t treat it as a social club, they’re gonna have problems. But, if they do, they either have less time to train, or have to take time from elsewhere. From where? Family? Work?
[QUOTE=TenTigers;929143]It is always made clear to students applying for membership that Lion Dance is part of the curriculum, and that participation-in any way they feel comfortable, so long as they contribute, (heck, they can hand out lai-see fung to the diners) is mandatory.[/QUOTE]
Mandatory? What do you do if someone says "No’?
MA is just a small part of my life. If I had another activity planned (or if I just didn’t want to do it) then that’s my choice.
I assume you tell your students before they sign up that if they miss certain classes or events they will be booted from the program>
our school’s atmosphere and what we provide, is one of the things that sets us apart from most other schools, and it is that little niche that we have carved out for ourselves. Also, a large percentage of our school is Chinese, and they come to this school for this very reason.
i guess lion dance is a southern thing
wel if u really wanna keep all the traditions whay not build a square platfarm and ask pepple to come up to fight u, why pick and choose the traditions, right
[QUOTE=TenTigers;929147]let me also add, when we perform a Lion Dance, students get a share of the tips, and there is always a festive dinner afterwards. I always make it as enjoyable as possible, and it becomes a method of bonding between hing-dai. For us, it’s a party.[/QUOTE]
It sounds like you run a friendly event. But, I would be a cancer by your definition. I have no spare time. None. When law school starts, less, especially as I may need to work full time while doing it. This leaves time for kung fu, time for my wife, and that’s about it. No Chinese New Year, rarely any sort of vacation.
Yet, in China, I was not looking to study kung fu, but ended up studying free because teachers liked me and considered me talented, a very fast learner, and already in possession of decent kungfu, and utterly dedicated to understanding methods. I’m approaching equal in kung fu skill(granted, he knows other martial arts that I do not, speaking of our core style) to my teacher here, which is his least requirement for feeling like teaching was worth it. Teachers like to teach me, but the ones with sufficient experience to be my teacher, all seem to recognize that the Confucian paradigm says that I’m too old to be viewed as even a figurative son, and this requires different manners than other situations. You cannot compel someone my age with my schedule without suggesting that I let down others who are closer to family to me. Likewise, students have relations closer to them that may have more important requirements, and, in the case stated above, there may have been no explicit “my school requires mandatory lion dancing”, in which case the student is not at fault at all, much less a cancer.
[QUOTE=BoulderDawg;929150]MA is just a small part of my life. If I had another activity planned (or if I just didn’t want to do it) then that’s my choice. [/QUOTE]
yes, it is entirely your choice. But, it is also your choice to decide whether or not to join, yes? This is the same thing whether you are taking Kung-Fu, painting, guitar or motorcycle lessons. You find a place with the curriculum, and atmosphere you enjoy. If you don’t like it, you simply go to another place that suits your needs.
I studied painting and graphic design at SVA. I chose it over Parsons, Pratt, FIT, and others due to it’s atmosphere, it’s teachers, and the intensity of its training.
(if you missed a deadline, you failed the class) But, it was what I wanted in an Art school.
[QUOTE=TenTigers;929143]I understand the issues with opposing teams in Chinatown. (I also was involved in a few dabacles which almost escalated into all out war-ah,the good ol days)Normally, that does not occur these days, as they now assign specific routes as well as an officer to each team. Nowadays, if one guy refuses passage to another team, the fur no longer flies, they revoke their permits and send them home.[/QUOTE]
obviously doing LD at local malls, restaurants, schools etc. does not incur the kind of risk a full-fledged C-town episode would (heck, in your neighborhood, it’s probably worse just walking down the street w/the wrong color shirt on; BTW, did you hear about the recent gang-related stabbing at Hunt. HS? I missed walking right into the middle of it by literally 30 seconds, LOL - but I did get to see the custodian mopping up the blood…); personally, I think that, as a cultural artifact, LD is great, and many public / private schools have it as part of a Chinese New Years cultural unit;
[QUOTE=TenTigers;929143]It is always made clear to students applying for membership that Lion Dance is part of the curriculum, and that participation-in any way they feel comfortable, so long as they contribute, (heck, they can hand out lai-see fung to the diners) is mandatory.[/QUOTE]
as long as that is put out up front, then that’s obviously cool; personally, I think it still should be purely voluntary, but if one is looking for a more “traditional” school, one would probably feel inclined to go along with it as a requirement anyway
[QUOTE=TenTigers;929151]Also, a large percentage of our school is Chinese, and they come to this school for this very reason.[/QUOTE]
Exactly why it works, you do have the necessary ingredients.
But, the poster above, whose student you called cancer, is his situation at all the same? Maybe you are not aware of this, but there are some Chinese sifus who enforce Confucianism on everyone but themselves, because they conveniently don’t teach Chinese people(or Chinese people don’t train with them), and so the people who those sifus respect never hear the truth about them. Also, there are some trying to run traditional schools without realizing that the student base being from a different culture makes the tradition impossible to achieve without negotiation, which can cause much annoyance for teacher and student alike until equilibrium is met.
[QUOTE=taai gihk yahn;929157]
as long as that is put out up front, then that’s obviously cool; personally, I think it still should be purely voluntary, [/QUOTE]
Keep in mind, if his students are mostly Chinese, in the case of a Chinese New Year’s deal, their family is probably going to see them. They are providing a taste of home for a lot of people, so there’s a whole different level of motivation to do it and experience in doing it.
KC, I understand your situation. Students contribute in many ways to the school. Some who cannot Lion Dance, contribute in other ways. Some students contribute by setting an example, or by helping in other ways. Their presence is always felt and appreciated, and their time constraints or other limitations are understood.
I mean, let’s not get crazy about it.
I was referring to people who are selfish,spoiled and self-centered. We’ve all met them, and we all know how their presence is felt in the school.
It’s not really an issue, as those types usually weed themselves out naturally.
[QUOTE=taai gihk yahn;929157]obviously doing LD at local malls, restaurants, schools etc. does not incur the kind of risk a full-fledged C-town episode would ([/QUOTE]
Are you kidding? We almost got killed in an altercation between Gap Kids and OshKosh B’Gosh. There were diapers flying all over the place.
Then the bigger kids with the pullups walked in and leveled the place.
It was a milkbath.
[QUOTE=KC Elbows;929158]Exactly why it works, you do have the necessary ingredients.
But, the poster above, whose student you called cancer, is his situation at all the same? Maybe you are not aware of this, but there are some Chinese sifus who enforce Confucianism on everyone but themselves, because they conveniently don’t teach Chinese people(or Chinese people don’t train with them), and so the people who those sifus respect never hear the truth about them. Also, there are some trying to run traditional schools without realizing that the student base being from a different culture makes the tradition impossible to achieve without negotiation, which can cause much annoyance for teacher and student alike until equilibrium is met.[/QUOTE]
I think Elbow’s comments have been right on. When I made my post, I didn’t really understand that this mindset was Confucian but reading his comments have provided some context.
We don’t do lion dancing at my school but my Sifu definitely preaches giving back to the school. Still, he never requires it as a condition of receiving that for which we have paid. Rather, he sets such a good example by volunteering in the community and by giving time to his students that we don’t pay for (he says he won’t do make-up tests and has a private lesson fee but almost always gives extra time to students outside of class without the charges). Consequently, when he asks us to do a demonstration or to come to a seminar, I go if it’s at all possible. Though not technically Confucian, he’s appealed to the more modern values of leading by example and by doing good turns to us. That makes us want to return the favor. The fact that he’s so earnestly interested in his art gives his students a feeling that they’re getting value over what they are paying also helps.
If any of this makes sense…
makes perfect sense. That is what I try to accomplish in my own school. I am always giving time to students who need it, and I do alot of community service.(and will continue to do so even after my probation is up! :D) I try to set the example for my students. You sure you’re not in my school? LOL
this isn’t China, most of us aren’t Chinese and a lot of the Chinese are AMERICAN Chinese…
this reminds me of being told I couldn’t go to a tournament because I belong to a federation. I remember saying “I never joined this federation” and being told I had to because it was a requirement of all kung fu schools in the area :rolleyes:
Then I was supposed to pay a fine, because as a member of a federation I had no choice in joining, I had to listen to decisions I had no part in making :rolleyes:
I told them NO and they seemed confused :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=TenTigers;929162]Are you kidding? We almost got killed in an altercation between Gap Kids and OshKosh B’Gosh. There were diapers flying all over the place.
Then the bigger kids with the pullups walked in and leveled the place.
It was a milkbath.[/QUOTE]
LOL; of course, if you do go to the Westfield mall, and you have a colored bandanna hanging out of your rear pocket, well…
[QUOTE=taai gihk yahn;929178]LOL; of course, if you do go to the Westfield mall, and you have a colored bandanna hanging out of your rear pocket, well…[/QUOTE]
Why am I getting pictures of Al Pacino in Cruising flashing in my mind? lol