How far are you willing to go

On the street, the person that usually wins a confrontation is the person that is willing to go the farthest. Lets put it this way, if myself and Rickson Gracie fought over a parking spot he’d probably wipe the floor with me. However if he threatened my family and the ones I loved, he’d be dead, no questions asked. It all comes down to mentality and conviction; Being big, bad and skilled will most definately help but it will not be the deciding factor in a street fight.

This is a truth, that can be applied to all facets of combat. What really scares me though is when I look at the confrontation that America is about to enter I have to ask myself, does America have the BALLS to fight this kind of war. People often state that the men who hijaked those planes were cowards. I disagree, they were desperate men that were willing to sacrifice themselves in order to make a statement to the world. Think about it, could you do it? Could you take a plane full of people and smash it into a building just to hurt your enemy.

How do you defeat an enemy like this, an enemy that has absolutely nothing to lose. How far is America willing to go to win.

No matter how mad you would be he would still kick your ass…

IXIJoe KaveyIXI
I am Sharky’s main man…

About the country thing…

They may not care about dying but their power isnt enough…

IXIJoe KaveyIXI
I am Sharky’s main man…

Buy me a nice dinner and I’ll go ALL THE WAY!

uh, what was the question?


This space intentionally left blank.

i really don’t think it’s going to be an all out war like everyone is thinking.

imo it’s going to be allot of extensive intelligence and police work backed by the military. we have to find out who the enemy is, where they are, what they plan on doing, and then erradicate them. i know things don’t look that good right now, but i don’t think that we will be going to war with a specific country.

if we do go to war with afganistan, or any country, i think that we will bomb the sh!t out of them and sacrafice tons of our own ground troups until we get bored with it all and decide to give up. i really don’t see what this will acomplish so i hope it doesnt come to that. the only reason we have to attack another goverment is if they admit to harboring or aiding terrorists in any way. if they eventually get tired of being assulted by most of the rest of the free world they will agree to our terms and still operate the same as usual (to the best of their ability if they are then policed by us) behind our backs.

you’re 100% right. we can’t do much to those who are willing to die by their own hands. there is no way to punish them. well … i can think of ways but it will never happen and if it actually did we would never hear about it. all we can do is seek them out and eliminate the threat of their existance.

where’s my beer?

The convictions of a fly will not help it out of the spiders web.

More power than you have is simply that.

If I have a gun, and you have nothing, you lose period,in a violent confrontation.

If I have Martial skill, and amm 100 lbs heavier, twice as fast, and think better than you in a violent confrontation, you lose regardless of how you feel.

This is reality. Moral tales do not apply, nor does moral conviction.

As for the “terrorists”, upon being caught, they are toast, period.

But ya can’t toast the bread that you can’t find. That’s the only problem.

The people who attacked the free world are envious coward scumbags and nothing more. Hiding out in their make believe world.

The only thing they are changing is their own life expectancy. And the ability of any one in the sympathizing countries ability to immigrate to the free world, even if they are ok.

The free world will only be free to those that are in it soon, and that’s too bad that a few cowards gotta screw it up for the rest of the world, but that is bitter reality.

peace

Kung Lek

ARCHANGEL

or should I say Bill Mar from “politicly incorrect”?

worry not good friend, we’ve balls a’plenty and bombs, tanks, guns and jets to back it up.

A “war” with “Afganistan” would be tough, but we can do it if need be. Me i hope and pray that it won’t come to that, we bomb 'Laden then root out his followers.

you wish you could kick gracie’s ass

The scary thing is that there’s a lot of people in the world that will do what it takes to beat you (even if that means shooting you a week after you kicked his ass) He wins the “fight”.

Best to not fight unless there is no other choice. :slight_smile:
Like I’ve always said, the “tuff guy” image is all fantasy.

Ryu

“One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage.”

I would rather be called “Bill Mahr” than “Jerry Falwell”

Let me ask you all this…with all your so called martial skill… I fight you with a gun. Do you call me a coward?

Before you answer…
America fights with cruise missiles and tanks and jets… (me with the gun)

Thos crazy terrorists fight with their very lives… (you all with your bare hands)

Who is the coward there?

(as a matter of fact, I do carry weapons on my person at all times…does that make me a coward to have an edge?)

not just how you fight

but who and when.

US - trys to hit military targets, bases, guys with guns ect.

assholes - civilians

would I be a brave man if i snuck upbehind Ken Shamrock and cold cocked hin? no. Would I have defeated him in unarmed combat?yeah kinda.

and I am, in general, against the “Anti-septic” ideal of war.

“Are you guys ready? Let’s roll.”
Last words of Todd Beamer heard over his open mobile line right before rushing the hijackers.

From now on, enemies who are associated with terrorist activity will not cohabit the globe with the United States of America. William F. Buckley

“Americans don’t have the courage to come here,” Mullah Mohammed Omar, leader of the Taliban soon to be getting his first of 70 virgins.

Never forget

Sorry, Archangle, but I disagree with your basic conclusion, that “will” overcomes all “might”. Take it to the extreme: Pit a determined quadraplegic against a bored Bruce Lee. Put your money down, son! Who do you want in this match?

As far as applying this to our war with terrorism, it might be time to reconsider what “win” means. Winning against terrorism is not going to be like winning a football game or a boxing match. In those, the bands play, crowds cheer and the foe knows he is beaten and the conflict is over.

With terrorists it is never over. It may be more like fighting termites. Just because you have your house treated, doesn’t mean the threat is gone and it is time to party. It just means you have closed one vulnerable avenue to one nest of termites. There are always other nests and other avenues.

There are also places where they nest, multiply and feel safe. These must be “treated”.

In the end, there is no end; just as there is no end to crime or disease. Victory is no more than “temporary control”. Terrorism has just become one more nasty fact of life that all of us must accept and come to personal grips with. Sept 11 just made it personal to each American, where before it always happened to “other” people.

Ben Laden, your operation was good; real good in fact. But you fu*ked up one little thing… you didn’t get all of us.

Let me elaborate

If Rickson Gracie or any other man seriously threatened my family, he would be dead. If that means me pulling out my spyderco and slicing his throat then so be it; If that means pulling out my baton and going to town on the top of his head, no problem. Even if he did kick my ass, I’d be back with my friends or a gun and i’d finish it. That’s how far I’m willing to go to protect my family.

America has the largest and best equipped military in the world. On the battlefield there is no country that can match us. In this fight however there is no battlefield. Much like Vietnam we have an enemy that lurks in shadows and attacks visciously without any warning. We limped out of Vietnam with our tail between our legs and were embaraced in front of the world.

The question is, have we learned from our mistakes and do we now have the stomach to finish this war.

Your “elaboration” looks strangely like a re-statement of your original post. Both seem to imply that just because you become enraged and would pull out all the stops in defending your family, you will have been granted some kind of immortality, since your cause is just.

I am not questioning your will or dedication or bloody-mindedness. I am just saying that “cause” does not equate to immortality. There’s lots of dead people that had good causes. Once you are dead, it doesn’t matter how dedicated you WERE.

Don’t get me wrong, though. I’m certainly not saying there is no place in life for the “blood feud”. I’m saying that just because you’re in one, don’t get hooked on the idea that you get some magic bullet-proof vest and that all your enemies will fall before you like dry leaves in the wind.

Last, Vietnam was not a military loss. The big man won on the battlefield. It was a political loss where that military victory was wasted by political restrictions. But that is quite pertinent to your comment, “…have we learned from our mistakes and do we now have the stomach to finish this war.” We shall see. :slight_smile:

Ben Laden, your operation was good; real good in fact. But you fu*ked up one little thing… you didn’t get all of us.

Yeah, we as a people do have the resolve to “finish” this. The only problem, as SLC already stated, there is no finish line we can cross. The most we can do is to minimize terrorist acts by beefing up our security. Of course to do that, we will lose the very freedoms we are fighting for. It’s a trade off… security for freedom. The sad thing is most people in this country will opt against freedom.

Oh and I don’t think ANYONE in the military is a coward. As I said, many of my friends are in the various services and I support them for fighting for our country. The thing is, they may give up their lives for this country…will the regular people? Archangel already asked how can we fight an enemy willing to sacrifice themselves? Any suggestions? Bomb a whole country? Deal with each terrorist cell? Just get Bin Laden?

Dubya did one thing right (probably Cheney’s plan) he did right to freeze the assests of the terrorists. Without $$$ they can’t fight.

Why assume this?

“they were desperate men that were willing to sacrifice themselves in order to make a statement to the world. Think about it, could you do it?”

The actual terrorists may probably have people who had little to do with feeling the grievances of the Muslim world. They may have just been opportunists who rose to the top of a criminal organization and they found they had the bad luck to draw the wrong card.
One of the major car bombings in Lebannon was a 16 year old girl. That’s not a dedicated terrorist. That was a threatened and manipulated person.
It goes like this: Hey Archangel, the boss has decided your are going to do a suicide. No you can’t back out of it, youv’e been shouting silly slogans in crowds for the last 4 years as part of your job saying how you will do exactly that. If you don’t, you will no longer have any place in our society, your whole family and friends will be in disgrace if not killed. You certainly will be killed anyway and tortured if you refuse, and there’s nowhere for you to run, no witness protection program. If you accept, you will be a martyr and your family will be well provided for.
That’s a choice?
Don’t you see in movies how the mafia can manipulate people the same way? It’s movies but the method is real.
The chinese used it to assasinate the head of the secret service for Chiang Kai Shek. The pilot was told by the communists, if he didn’t drive the plane straight to the ground , every one of his family members would be killed. Unfortunately for him, the guomintang then killed every one of his family members in retaliation.
Anyone can be pressured to do it. 16 year old girls and even Americans (against another country) can be pressured.
So it’s not such a heroic, courageous, self-sacrificing act viewed in another light is it?

Done from fear.

“A wish to go to Heaven is the very beginning of falling into Hell.”

This is most of what Gen (Ret) McCaffery has to say about it. He ran the drug war after retiring from the army.


There will be no end state…we will, if successful, manage this chronic threat to our survival, economy, and self-confidence by dramatically lowering the risk. We will build a series of defensive programs that will make a multiple order of magnitude increase in our day-to-day security.

Second, we will form a coalition based on common danger. Much of the globe will join us to leverage foreign intelligence services and security forces to fight these FTO’s forward in the battle area. Finally, we will at last take the gloves off and use integrated military power to find, fix, and destroy these organizations.

We are going to disrupt these people thru pre-emptive attack…we will deceive them, we will run psyops on them… at selected points and times
they will be killed suddenly, in significant numbers, and without warning. Tomahawk missiles, 2000 lb laser guided weapons dropped from B2’s or F22’s at very high altitude, remote control booby traps, blackmail, and at places…small groups of soldiers or Seals will appear in total darkness.blow down the doors and kill them at close range with automatic weapons and hand grenades.

We will find their money and freeze it. We will arrest their front agents. We will operate against their recruiting and transportation functions. We will locate their training areas and surveillance or mine them. We will isolate them from their families. We will try to dominate their comunication function and alternately listen, jam, or spoof it. We will
make their couriers disappear. If we can find out how they eat, or play, or receive rewards, or here they sleep…we will go there and kill them by surprise.

The military component will be a supporting but lesser aspect of a strategy that will be based fundamentally on diplomatic and economic leverage to compel cooperation with international law. Of prime importance, we must reduce the environmental factors that feed this type of extremist madness…foreign aid must be dramatically increased to address the misery
and poverty of the Palestinians, the Afghan’s, the Sudanese and others.

We must also not be unwilling to confront the State sponsors of terror.Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Cuba, North Korea… none can be allowed to provide the base for another sickening strike against our civilian population or our Allies. Conventional military power will be used at the end of the day to place at risk those states that present a direct threat to our security. If deterrence does not work with coherent political and economic measures in support of a threat capability…then their political will must be shattered with overwhelming violence directed at their armed forces and the political decision-makers.

The big challenge will be to organize America to protect our transportation, our economic activity, our entertainment…etc. with minimal invasion of our privacy and our free movement. We will constrain domestic law enforcement through the protection of our Judicial System. We will ensure the unfettered operation of a free press. We will have to be zealous to protect the Bill Of Rights and the dignity and safety of foreigners living among us during this War.

We can do all of this. We have no option. The American people will depend on you and your fellow soldiers to step forward and stand between us and the barbarians.

BRM

Ben Laden, your operation was good; real good in fact. But you fu*ked up one little thing… you didn’t get all of us.

Vietnam Myths

"Much like Vietnam we have an enemy that lurks in shadows and attacks visciously without any warning. We limped out of Vietnam with our tail between our legs and were embaraced in front of the world.

The question is, have we learned from our mistakes and do we now have the stomach to finish this war."

The American Command and Forces structure learned from their mistakes before the war ended.

I am currently reading “A Better War” by Lewis Sorely. “The unexamined victories and final tragedy of America’s last years in Vietnam.” 1999.

In this, Geneal Abrams had virtually won Vietnam by 1972. America’s withdrawal of support lost the war after that. And in face of the continued will and supply by both China and th USSR. (But then that cost the USSR the cold war !!)
BTW; in the vietnam war Viet Cong ceased to be an operational threat by 1969, they had been cleaned out. Over 90% of the pop remained under GVN control and it stayed that way. Thereafter it had become a conventional war.
Abrams also changed the stragey from “body count” to protection of the vietnamese people and resticting the bombings to the operational theater.

But what is really interesting is the “learning from our mistakes” part. Abrams began the reforms and initiatiatives for the next generations leaders.
Sorley states that it was Abrams’ (died 1974) learning from Vietnam that credits “the victorious force of the Gulf War”. It was the “Abrams vision in action …modern equipment, effective air support, use of reserve components and advanced traing to keep our people alive on the battlefront” that accounted for the stunning success.

Give it a read, it’ll give you a new perspective.

“A wish to go to Heaven is the very beginning of falling into Hell.”

[This message was edited by stumblefist on 10-02-01 at 09:54 AM.]

Benefits of hindsight

“were embaraced in front of the world” (for withdrawal from Vietnam).


Quote from William Shawcross, leading anti-vietnam war protester…20 years later.

“Those of us who were opposed to the American effort in Indochina should be humbled by the scale of suffering inflicted by the communist victors - especially in Cambodia but in Vietnam and Laos as well.”

“A wish to go to Heaven is the very beginning of falling into Hell.”