Gung fu world

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

Hi All I thought I would stir up the pot today…

I was having a discussion with a few friends about the state of the gung fu world of today. As the old generation grows older and dies out it seems through miscommunication and misinterpation that the gung fu world is not what it should be. There are only a handful of schools out there that still sticks to fighting as the theory and concepts in a given system dictates. I have noticed most of the schools of today teach the forms and when it comes to there combat they fall into the KICKBOXING dilemma. Even though the kicks and punches and throws are simple base techniques in the system but that is far as they go. Is it possible for someone to spar another person using the concept of the system with gloves on. I believe it is but it seems that it is not being tried. This can be seen in the all gung fu tournaments with the continuous sparring matches. Are these fighters skilled? I say yes but are they using their gung fu I say only to a small level. The state of shan shou is a great one full contact fighting but it is still kick boxing fought on a platform with throws. You see boxing skills and wrestling throws or shuai jiao throws and kicks. Even though this is a good way to test your skill you are not demonstrating your gung fu skills. I am not putting down these great men who have the heart to step on the platform but I would love to see these men actually use their styles in the ring.

With the advent of NHB not one gung fu stylist has come forward and used there given style. They use their kickboxing skills and throws as well as grappling. There is nothing wrong with this at all even if they are successful but this makes gung fu look like it is in a sorry state. People who had interest in studying looks and say or wonder if they are better off studying MMA because you can not tell the Difference between the two. Which is not a good thing.

I know with this statement everyone is going to say well I use my tech in the traditional sense. Even I had to reevaluate my training. To compensate for a grappler I had to train my grip to adapt my tech for attempt to take my legs. I had to modify my sprawling tech while applying my traditional tech and theory. I would love to see a NHB gung fu match on the lei tai stage with no glove as it is now legal in most states and I would love to compete in one.

The state of the shan shou is good but it can better. We have thai boxers, wrestlers, people with lil or no gung fu skills with a good amount of kickboxing and grappling skills dominating the circuit. I digress on that topic as these men on the lei tai stage are all warriors but I do not aspire to be there level but go beyond it.

I would love to see the wing chun stylist go at it with a choy la fut stylist slug it out with chain punches and long arm tech. I would love to see a mantis stylist go against the iron bridge of a hung gar stylist but what can you do.

The only thing I can say to you all is evaluate the way you do fight is it just using bits and pieces of your system to add to your kickboxing or are you using your whole system in the way it was created to be used. If you practice bong sau or a diu sau ****** use it or don’t bother training it. If you practice training chin na apply it and see if it works. Shuai jiao has the meanest throws I have ever seen. They are touted as being the best around. SO throw the person and if done right they shouldn’t get up afterwards.

I know you are all going to ask do I compete in shan shou or NHB. I never had the chance to enter a tournament but I do train for the event (full contact with gear) I also like to test my skill with no gear. I test my skills and I don’t mi

2

Yep, I’d love to see the Wing Chun vs Choy lay Fut thing too. My old Choy lay teacher taught me (funnily enough) the Sil Lim Tao. When I asked him why he said that when he was in Hong Kong these WC/CLF fights occurred a lot, and much as he hated to admit it, WC seemed to win the vast majority of them. So he figured “know thy enemy” and learned the basics of WC too.
NHB Kung Fu vs Kung Fu. I’d support it all the way.

“Forfeit the game
Before somebody else takes you out of the frame
And puts your name to shame
Cover up your face
You can’t run the race
The pace is too fast,
You just won’t last!”

3

Cool

so far it seems alot of people agree with me but it seems that some people figure that it shouldnt be trained in that manner

4

my WT instructor teaches us a great deal of other goodies as well. a major problem in a lot of styles is that they don’t train against other styles. if i ever fight, i doubt it’ll be against another wc/vt/wt person (hopefully, i’ll be having a drink with them). it’ll probably be against some dirty, crafty, evil, underhanded jkd guy :wink:

kidding aside, we learn a lot of basic techniques from judo, jkd, aikido, silat, tkd, muay thai (we also teach muay thai at my kwoon, so we have that handydandy neatness), hapkido, choy lay fut, jujutsu, wrestling, shoot wrestling and other such goodness. the “know thy enemy” idea works wonders - if we can perform jujigotame, we’ll know what it works like and be able to defend against it all the better. by the same token, we become familiar with how a lot of styles have great similarities (hooking motions, arcing motions, etc.) - basically, a lot of it is a combination of wing tsun and escrima theory, and knowing how many styles are strikingly similar (pun intended), whether the strike is a tiger claw or a mantis fist or a simple right cross. what the hand looks like when it hits you isn’t as important as how the strike is coming at you and how you can deal with it.

anyhoo, two pennies short again. this is becoming habit-forming. :wink:

-rtb

5

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> anyhoo, two pennies short again. this is becoming habit-forming. [/quote]

LOL. Go easy then, it could become expensive :smiley:
Just kidding.

Good post, rtb.

“42.7 percent of all statistics are made up on the spot.”

Max

6

Nice posting

I feel as you do, it would be nice to see more real artest REALY Do there STUFF!
But the NHB shows can realy teach you something too.
Now I will give those people who perform in those games the benefit of the dought.
Before they get into the ring,you see then do there STUFF,and thay look GREAT! Buuut whin thay are faced with an someone who realy wants to hurt them,somehow,someway thay all do the same thing?
I belive if you are going to fight someone you cant play there game,(do not box with a boxer,or grapple with a grappler.) the trick of it is you want to fight your own game,not the other persons.
I realy dont Know Why,but in the NHB’s shows everyone dose the same thing, nomatter what thay all say before it starts.
Just a few thoughts,perhaps someone can explain WHY? I sure CANT.
C.A.G.

7

I love this it seems only people from the wing chun and southern and northern mantis ( a few ) actaully feel the same way I do.. but on the Main board it seems a few see it as a sport but hey ech there own i guess..

Time to burn the paper tigers lol

8

couldn’t agree more

i’d love to see a bit of the old rivalry brought back, but i wonder how realistic that is in this day and age. i don’t know how it throughout the rest of the western world, but in washington state, i know of dozens of wt/wc/vt schools, but i’ve only heard of one choy lay fut school (happens to be in town - and one of my kwoon’s senior students is dating one of their kwoon’s senior students).

oh, and one thing: the reason i brought up jujigotame? i make sure i know that real d@mn well, because i funked up my elbow the first time i tried to defend against it when applied at decent speed. :mad:

not like i’m bitter or anything. :wink:

-rtb

9

mantis 7

I saw your posting in different places. Martial arts including wing chun should be judged by their effectiveness besides other criteria. But UFC etc do have limitations- rules,cage etc and they really
dont offer much money and they are sporting spectacles. The producers make the money. Good western boxers even dont enter those things…Tyson, Trinidad, Vargas and others make more money in an exhibition than they would in the UFC.I have yet to see a first class puncher. And the older Shamrock eventually thought that there was more money in WWWW.There have been a couple of unknown inexperienced wc folks who entered…but the UFC has not seen wc folks of equivalent(years of training) good training compared to the wrestlers and jj folks. If one wants to make friendly comparisons for learning between styles(a real one would get someone killed) folks can do it outside of the UFC and I know folks who have done just that.The reason most of the guys do basically the same thing is the rules and money and the legal environment prevent other things being shown.Viwers expect and enjoy drawn out spectacles. And those who pay the fiddlers andthe producers who take their cut from the top call the tune.On the street dont expect a half hour roll around on a mat.

10

Martial Arts Today

Mantis7

It is funny you post this today. I picked up a copy of a magazine called Inside Kung Fu (Though there Kung Fu shared equal page space with many other arts.) and began to wonder about the same thing.
Warning: this is going to be a long post, I feel passionatley about this!
A freind of mine who is in Jujitsu and competes here in the midwest in UFC style tourneys and I were talking one day after looking at the typoes of fighters, thier styles, and thier rankings. My art, Wing Chun had only a few fighters under its banenr, all were towards the bottom. After some discussion we both cam to the conclusion that this was probably due to restrictions within the rules, than anything else. Sport fighting is “soft” fighting, not in that the fighters themselves are not tough, or skilled, but that they are protected by rules and regulations, for good reason.
The other problem I have noticed, and some of you may agree or disagree heatedly on this, is that too many people focus too much on style and not skill. There is another discussion string about the weaknesses of Wing Chun on this forum. IMHO, There are no weaknesses to wing chun, just weak practitioners. This means many people who decide that Wing chun, or many other arts they may study, are weak in an area and need some boosting and mixxing with other arts, probably just haven’t taken the time to study them well. In the past Artist practiced thier styles for most of thier lifetime. The masters were good at what they did, for that reason. They learned thier art so thoroughly that they could make thier opponents fight them. What I mean is, if you think Wing Chun has weak ground fighting capability, then you should know Wing Chun well enough to make your opponent fight you standing up. Beyond this and it may unfortunately be a lapse in knowledge and skill, not style weakness.
Recently I was forced to find another school for Wing Chun after my old Sifu stopped teaching. The first few schools I visited were mixed martial arts schools, they taught a little of everything so all bases were covered. Unfortunatley I view this as a weakness unto itself. Now a days we want instant gratification, we westerners are impatient and want to know how now, we dont want to have to work too hard for it. The instructor I finally found was surprised when he told me it would take about 2 years before he would let me spar, and I just nodded and said ok. He has a regimen laid out, and a system for teaching his Art and this rtecquires some patience, which may be part of what he is teaching, and just not telling me! :slight_smile:
I guess what I am saying is take a look at your art, and what it has to offer. Like marriage, you should be faithful to your self and your art, dont let your eyes wander to other styles, because they are flashier or someone has talked them up, remain patient and seek out the 'secrets of what your style has to offer. IMHO, 10 years should be the minimum in one style for someone to be considered a good teacher in it. My expectations may be way off, but I think that that is not unreasonable. You may learn your Art in a few years, usually 2-5, but to unlock its secrets and become familiar with it like you would your own body, mind and spirit, takes longer. You must spend time with it, like an old friend, because even with old friends we constantly discover new things!

Jason

“try not, do or do not. There is no try.”

11

Yuan Fen

Hey Joy, glad to see you on this board as well! Also glad to see you sticking up for Wing Chun! You are an inspiration for an aspiring Wing Chun artist, you have a good idea of what is out there and a good idea of what is in the Art!

Jason

“try not, do or do not. There is no try.”

12

Hey Red Sangel:

Nice to “see” you.You are blowing what little cover I have<g>!
Most posters around here are completely anonymous
and some show the courage of anonymity and sitting behind a screen… not always verbally nice.
Yoda sez: in your backyard is 70 year or so old
Southern Mantis great Gin Foon Mak…still the real deal. Why would he want to enter UFC/
If he did and they let him do what he can do he would be
sent up to the big house and the poor house too
and be forever indebted to lawyers..
joy

13

:slight_smile:

Sorry for blowing your cover there Yuan Fen! ;), still it is nice to see a voice of reason in this stew of opinions!

“try not, do or do not. There is no try.”

14

problems with MA today

I think what you are saying Yuan Fen is the real problem when people start to gauge which martial arts are effective by how they do in tournemants. Alot of the arts out there have a good portion of potentially debilitating moves that can’t be used and when you look at it, holds and grappling forms can use probably 80% of what they know and practice. I know that some of the most effective WC moves I have seen so far are ones that end up destroying a joint or limb. that means that if I were to enter the ring with WC, I could probably only use about 60-70% of what I know, a significant advantage, like running a 100yrd dash with a 10 yard handicap. Its possible I could win the race but most likely I wont.

“try not, do or do not. There is no try.”

15

red5angel

you make some darn good points, but go ahead and take it a step further: while a lot of people judge martial arts by how well the art does in tournament, a great deal of those and more people base their opinions of an art on SOMEONE ELSE participating in a tournament.

it’s a bias we all have, some more latent and some more blatant. the general argument is that since so and so style wins more often than this other style, so and so style is better. by the same logic, we may infer that african americans and hispanics are better boxers since they hold more belts than caucasians.

however, like many seemingly logical arguments, this one doesn’t hold water. by saying that, since vale tudo or bjj or muay thai fighters hold more belts, they’re better fighters would be presumptive. that’s an absolutist statement, but this issue has no absolutes. all a belt-holder is is someone who was the best fighter at a certain given time at a certain given event. maybe someone easily good enough to beat the eventual winner in a tourney doesn’t care to fight in tourneys, maybe his wife is giving birth, maybe he’s going K-1 instead of UFC - who knows? but to say that, because someone holds a belt, that they’re the best in the world is unsubstantiated.

what’s worse, to say their style is the best in the world holds even less water. it’d be like me saying since muay thai wins so many matches, it’s the best style. don’t give credit to the style. instead, give credit to the artists and fighters who work their arses off to make themselves the best they can be. i’ve never known anyone to train harder than thai boxers. one can argue the efficiency of the style until it’s bedtime, but the thai boxer is going to be working on their elbows and doing bagwork until bedtime, and he’s going to kick the oonkie out of the other person when the bell goes (ding).

basically, it’s a point that has been made hundreds of times before and i agree with it every time i hear it - while some styles are better for certain things than other styles, what it comes down to is the quality of the artist. the best bjj grappler going up against a second-rate wc fighter doesn’t mean squat. by the same token, a high-ranking wc practitioner squaring off against a thai boxer who’s still green from training (not actually sick - it’s just a metaphor for being new) means nothing either. you have to take a look at the quality of the artist and the quality of their performance. to me, that’s the only safe judge, and even that is horribly interpretive.

sigh. maybe we should just drop this crap and have margaritas at my place.

-rtb

16

to add a little more

not only that 'buddha, but some also like to point out that the really good artist, that masters, also have some humility and no need or drive to prove themselves in the ring. Some of the harder arts, like muay thai for instance, tend to attract extremely competitive people, and that pays off for them in thier winning more fights because they push themselves harder, not that that is always the answer…

“try not, do or do not. There is no try.”

17

Mantis 7 & others

How many of you would enter a truly NHB event which allowed groin kicks, breaks, eye strikes,etc? Would it be worth risking your life/limbs in order to truly assess your skill level or your art’s “effectiveness”?

18

nope

i study wing tsun to protect those bits. i’m not going to unnecessarily risk them for the sake of proving something that isn’t worth being proven.

19

exactly the point

Actually Shadowboxer, that is sort o fmy point. Alot of arts teach those things as part of thier technique, and the ring in a competition hardly proves that any art is the best, just the best for that situation.
All things being equal If I am fighting a wrestler, and he comes at me in classic wrestler pose, arms out, and he raises them to grab me and I slide a little to one side and break an elbow, well, his wrestling skills just went out the window.

Red5angel

rubthebuddha

i study wing tsun to protect those bits. i’m not going to unnecessarily risk them for the sake of proving something that isn’t worth being proven.

Shadowboxer
How many of you would enter a truly NHB event which allowed groin kicks, breaks, eye strikes,etc? Would it be worth risking your life/limbs in order to truly assess your skill level or your art’s “effectiveness”?