Gene I'm offended

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>But this is a cowardly argument to come from warriors. If your style dies with your generation, it is your fault. You cannot blame others for not passing down your tradition. [/quote]

Gene please tell me you didn’t write this.Communism made kung fu illegal,killing kung fu practtioners,sendind them to jail where some commited suicide and as a result many had to flee,destroying part of their culture forever and you guys dare write this?It is a total slap on the face to the ones who had to deal with so much pain and oppresion.Also to the one’s who try to strive to preserve what they have the best way they can.

I never stated I hated wu shu I just hate how the PRC promotes wu shu as the original art.I saw a documentation that was made in China and it said that kung fu is considered a bastard art to wu shu.Didn’t the red guard also attack shaolin temple?In consequence shaolin monks were made to go out of secular life and were force to get married to women or die?

What are you guys trying to do?

I’m sorry to be rude but that was a very offensive statement.

“Always be ready”

Let’s put it back into context.

First of all the argument in question is such: “Many traditionalists are also intimidated by the direct impact Olympic Wushu will have upon their own arts. They fear it will overshadow their “real kungfu” and the “real kungfu” will die out. But this is a cowardly argument…” By posting only the statement without out the arguement, you do me a great disservice. I stand behind that statement. Bringing up the “communism made kungfu illegal” issue just muddles the point. I wasn’t discussing the past, I was discussing the future. And even under communism, a warrior must understand his/her context.

It’s easy to attack communism, especially from an American martial arts standpoint. When I first went to China coming from a traditional CMA background, I had a lot of predjudice. But PRC is not what we would paint it to be and the IOC’s observation “works for China” is painfully accurate. HOpefully the Olypmics will increase understanding of China in the rest of the world. I’m sure that was the IOC’s intention.

Not to digress too much, but the “commies killed kungfu” tale is oversimplified. Honestly, do you think government officials cared about that? It was about politics - those kungfu people that opposed PRC were oppressed, but those that aligned with PRC endured - what do you think Mao’s bodyguards practiced? Study history - every Chinese dynasty crushed out the opposing military might of the previous one but these decisions where more about politics than kungfu vs. wushu. And kungfu still prevails, for the most part. The CR was terrible and horrible atrocities were committed against places like Shaolin, but just like Nazism, we must understand the origin. The evils were a result of suffering that preceded it. Obviously kungfu survived or we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.

The name changes - the term “kungfu” has only been used for martial arts recently - wushu is actually more accurate but maintains a stigma for those who don’t speak Chinese. In PRC, traditional wushu is not an oxymoron, so it really is a matter of perspective. But ultimately, Darwin prevails. It doesn’t really matter what it is called - what works will thrive.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com

You do have some strong points and I’ve also wondered about Mao’s men practicing kung fu but you seemed to not recognize the hardships that people had to go through.

I know that wu shu is more accurate but I was talking about the modern sports variant that we know of.Modern wu shu is till trying to be promoted as the original art and I have tapes that can confirm that.

bwt those arguments are not cowardly.

“Always be ready”

northen mantis

As a shaolin disciple, I am fully aware of the hardships of the CR. I’ve interviewed the old monks, spent time with them, and know the hardships they had to face - at least the ones they admit to - so don’t tell me I don’t recognize this.

But if you look at my original statement more carefully once more, you’ll see that this was not the issue at all. Certainly the facing the hardships or the CR over 3 decades ago was not cowardly. Traditional survived by letting itself be overshadowed by wushu for a while, and that is true bravery. Just like the monks, traditional stylists went underground. Now traditional has reemerged in the PRC as the root of wushu. The party line has changed and the traditional is honored.

My comment is about the fear of not being in the spotlight - this is cowardice. Who cares about the spotlight? That is just vanity. If, after the Olympics, the whole world only knows wushu, that has no effect on our practice of traditional kungfu and its no reason to abandon it. Traditional kungfu isn’t about the spotlight - wushu is. Even hidden, obscured by wushu, kungfu does not die and it is cowardly to fear this.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com

It’s not that I want kung fu to be on the spotlight,well partly.Heck I like it this way with only a few people knowing kung fu.I just don’t want the tradidtion to be lost.

Seeing a kung fu style fade away is like watching a brother die.

“Always be ready”

seeing kungfu die…

If your a true kungfu man, you’ll never see kungfu die, unless your looking in a mirror when you meet your maker knowing that you failed to pass it on.

I could die right now knowing that I didn’t break the chain. Some of my students (and some of my readers) carry the fire. And hopefully, my date with my maker is still far away. I’m working hard to document what I can, maintain my practice, and pass down the tradition. I can only hope you are doing the same.

I could never watch a brother die without doing all I could to help comfort him. But all things are impermanent…

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com

But still, Gene, you cannot deny the fact that many training methods or traditional styles/forms have died in the past (OK, sometimes it was because the master prefered to take it with him in the tomb if he hadn’t find someone worthy of being taught but still)…aside from that, you are right, it is our duty to master things in order to pass them on after so the flame burns for ever…

Communist propagand versus truth

“Not to digress too much, but the “commies killed kungfu” tale is oversimplified. Honestly, do you think government officials cared about that? It was about politics - those kungfu people that opposed PRC were oppressed, but those that aligned with PRC endured”
This is not true. Comummunism exterminated kungfu for 2 reasons: First to simply eliminate all other organizations, no matter what they were, because simply other social organizations are a threat to having one totalitarian organization. Even a simple martial arts club is a threat. There is no alliance, just the government and all else is to be exterminated. There simple is a government org now, for the purposes of promoting nationalism externally and internally and of course to get money from foreigners, it is a big cash cow, along with tourism.
Second reason was to exterminate the past, all of it, to kill all links with outside world and to kill all TRADITIONAL CHINESE culture in order to kill all threats of influence to the communist party, so that the party will be the only infuence in a person’s life. During the cultural revolution simply practicing kungfu, you were the enemy, there was no alliance to join, and some who refused to stop had their leg tendons cut

“And kungfu still prevails, for the most part.”
kungfu prevails for the most part because it has been preserved OUTSIDE of china NOT inside.

“The CR was terrible and horrible atrocities were committed against places like Shaolin, but just like Nazism, we must understand the origin. The evils were a result of suffering that preceded it.”
Mao and the surviving members of the communist party were the only origins of the cultural revolution. The cultural revolution was engineered by Mao and his chief of Secret police, Kang Sheng, in order to get rid of Mao’s political enemies WITHIN the communist part. The popular disruption stirred up by Mao was a smokescreen meant to disrupt the power of the ordinary police force and the army. Under this cover of disturbance Kang Sheng arrested and executed 100’s of thousands of high-ranking communist memmeber ending with the assination of Lin Biao and his wife in Shanghai. The next day Mao annonce that Lin Biao had crashed in an airplane “trying to escape” China (“shot while trying to escape” - sound familiar?). A short time later Mao annnounced that the CR was over , adding that some people’s heads “had become too swollen”, failing to mention all of those others who lost theirs :slight_smile: . The suffering that preceded was during and was after the CR was Mao and the communist party.

“But ultimately, Darwin prevails. It doesn’t really matter what it is called - what works will thrive.”
The communist part keeps Wushu artifically alive for its own purposes of fostering amoung which are fostering nationalism and hatred of other peoples and countries.
When communism dies we will really see what will endure and what will die. We will seee what Darwin will select, an artifically pumped up art or an art maintained all over the world by many countries and individuals, in itself and for itself.
Gene, you parrot communist govenment propaganda quite well, yet i think you really don’t know nor care whether the CCP is a jellyfish or a the curse of the mummy. You just think that somehow you are defending CHINA an The CHINESE PEOPLE and YOURSELF. None of these things are the CCP, and you cannot be a mainland chinese person, no matter what you do, you already “know too much”, no one can go back to naivity although you do try hard. You should accept that you are not chinese but a human being like the rest of us.
CCP TV says " Our party, our people, our china, our chinese". they try to put all these things as one so that people can’t separate them and think critically. So any critical thought just results in a nationalistic response. Therefore no growth. The key to freedom is to DIFFERENTIATE. What i am, what im not. This leads to critical thought and questioning alternatives - poison for dictatorships.
No matter how many medals China wins at the Olympics, it doesn’t give YOU any glory whatsoever in the real world, only in your own delusion (which it obviously does).

[This message was edited by stumblefist on 08-17-01 at 09:48 AM.]

crimson & stumble

cp: True, many styles will suffer and more will die. Don’t ask me why. It’s all about impermanence. Who knows how many styles died with the last dynasty, and the one before that, and before that? Don’t be too attached.

sf: The CR, although devastating, was not effective. Tradition has survived, just as it survived the rapacious attacks of the previous dynasties. PRC is the latest emperor, made villainous by our western “deomcratic” perspective. Don’t get me wrong now - I don’t support communism, but it works for China. Given the magnitude of China, there must be draconian rule. It’s so different than here. I just play devil’s advocate when Americans criticize China because we are such a spoiled culture sometimes.

As for your last paragraph, I’m not sure what your getting at exactly… “hatred of other people’s” “jellyfish or a curse of the mummy” “not chinese but human being like the rest of us” Just what are you trying to say?

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com

I think Gene makes a valid point that people often neglect when considering the phenomenon of totalitarian socialist regimes. Take the two biggies, China and the USSR. What was there before communism? Were they hotbeds of democracy? No, they weren’t. In fact, in both cases the previous governments were worse. Both countries have long-standing traditions of authoritarian rule peppered with the occasional atrocity. Both countries continue to operate in the same or a similar way. Even in the new, democratic Russia military personnel were captured on camera injecting a grieving relative with a sedative in order to stop her asking embarrassing questions.

It’s not a modern phenomenon in either of those countries, and it’s not something that’ll go away soon. It’s the way government has always worked there. There will have to be some major cultural shifts in both countries before they get to the level of individual freedom we’re at now, in my opinion. Likewise, there will have to be some major cultural shifts for us before we can reorganise ourselves in a more egalitarian way.

Bodyguards and Traditional

Gene, i think you are just guessing about Mao’s bodyguards aren’t you ? you are just exercising your imagination. For all you know they were traied in the army in a special forces type unit inherited military training, special probably but not necessarily a kung-fu art?
I CAN tell you for sure who trained his counterpart bodyguards. i.e. Chian Kai-Shek and his son and onwards… it was specifically the Northern Mantis Society in Taiwan i trained with. They taught the secret police and the palace guard, bodyguards. These were the traditional masters mostly from Shandong province, the inheritance being several Mantis’s Secret Gate, Six Harmaony and Baji Quan…as relayed to me by Zhou Gao Shan leader of the largest and oldest and most respectable and most invisible noncommercial society there , the Wutang being the commercial offshoot from Liu Yun Qiao’s legacy.
Well, i’m such a blabbermouth, but it doesn’t matter: you need a barrel of luck to try to penetrate that society.

“Now traditional has reemerged in the PRC as the root of wushu.”

What’s this about traditional being “the root” ? in China? Are you practicing Newspeak again? The best hope for that is that communism will die soon because the few that still do know some traditional are very old. If you open up any telephone book in any American City you will find more traditional kungfu than in alll of China.
Please name some masters and styles and their inheritance, their schools, number of students, locations? (exception of Chen Tai). You can’t because all of that is if not illegal just downright dangerous.
I am a Crane Specialist. I went to HK to research my art, but the lineage all dead and no links to GZ. I found another Crane specialist in HK. He just SNEERED when i mentioned looking for Crane in Guangzhou. China is a virtual traditional desert.

“Without water there would be no fish”

yah…you’d better go to Taiwan or Malaysia if you want some Crane…

Gene, indeed I try not to be too attached as you stated it, but still it kinda pisses me off to think that these treasure of chinese culture in particular and human civilisation in general will die…I don’t think Darwinism can apply fully there, it is not survival of the fittest…some very good styles disappeared (for example I’m sure taiji spear kicked ass, but now all that is left is scarce technique sequences…) for reasons other than their lack of efficiency…I guess the best styles required such a hard work or deep understanding that they eventually faded away…in a pessimistic view, I do not think it is solely the communism’s fault, but our whole money-oriented society, or just our whole time: we just cannot train traditionaly (ie “like back in the days”) and hard enough if at the same time we have to earn a living in our societies, in Beijing, New-York or Paris…
It’s funny but one taoist priest wrote back in the days that one of the conditions to reach enlightenment was to be rich…since if you had to earn a living you couldn’t give all your time to spiritual cultivation…I guess it is the same for gong fu…but as I like to say, the shame isn’t in failing, it is in not giving it our best…
Take care Gene!

Phoenix

[This message was edited by Crimson Phoenix on 08-19-01 at 09:52 AM.]

The work of Iron Rule

“sf: The CR, although devastating, was not effective. Tradition has survived, just as it survived the rapacious attacks of the previous dynasties.”
No! the cultural revolution WAS effective.The purpose was to eliminate Mao’s political enemies in the CCP and it WAS successful. As soon as his enemies were executed by Kang Sheng, he called it off. All the social disruption that got all the publicity was just the smokescreen and teh means to disrupt the nornmal power structure during the executions.
Traditional kungfu and traditional EVERYTHING has been under attack for the entire period of communist rule and still is. It is not allowed to have competition with the chinese government, all culture organizations inheritances are threats.

“PRC is the latest emperor, made villainous by our western “deomcratic” perspective. …I don’t support communism, but it works for China. Given the magnitude of China, there must be draconian rule.”
No! the PRC is not an emperrorship it is a modern totalitarian state 1000 times worse than any emperorship. It does not “work for” china, it “works on” china, feeds on it like a leech. Even Deng Xiao Ping admited china was 30 years behind modern times because of Communism. That is the nature of communism,: to sacrifice the country and the people to maintain power for the leaders.
What works in China now is capitalism, and what the leaders are desperately afraid of now is truth and information and ideas. They have spent 50 years wiping people’s minds clean and killing anybody who knew anything. Now the information explosion is threatening their security. Which is why there was a massive internet crackdown this year.Revealing not only NEWS but “Ecomonic secrets” is a crime for foreigners.
Can they hold on? Who knows? But i find that telling enslaved people that dictatorship works for them is insulting to the human race.

“Without water there would be no fish”

Freedom and draconian rule

“Given the magnitude of China, there must be draconian rule.”

This is a bogus justification given by the totalitarian dictatorship of the CCP as to why China needs to be enslaved.
Tell me how is this proven? It is total nonsense. Russia is still Russia, America is still America etc, etc, they are large and diverse regions..
If regions are not homogeneous then they will split and if they are, they will stay intact. It is the natural and peaceful and prosperous order of things.
The fact is, without totalitarian rule and the greedy territoriality of the CCP, certain countries and regions such as Tibet, Hong Kong, (Taiwan is already independent) and the Moslem provinces will certainly take their independence as they deservedly should.
There is no moral justification can be no excuse for the slavery of human beings anywhere and anytime. Human beings everywhere deserve to be free and to take their chances with freedom.
The chinese thought Communism offered them freedom. They found out too late it was not so. It is the God that failed, the whole world knows this. The case has not yet been tried in China. They have not been given the chance.

(Memo: Dear Citizen,
Because the country you live in is very large, it has been decided by me (the guy who owns all the guns) that you need to be ruled draconianly. Please go to the nearest post office to pick up your chains and your Gulag cell number.
yours truly,

1 state dictator and your personal god)


“Without water there would be no fish”

How to make a slave behave…

“I think Gene makes a valid point that people often neglect when considering the phenomenon of totalitarian socialist regimes. Take the two biggies, China and the USSR. What was there before communism? Were they hotbeds of democracy? No, they weren’t. In fact, in both cases the previous governments were worse.”

WRONG on both counts. The chinese revolution of 1911 was based on democratic ideas and the ideas on Dr. Sun Yat Sen. He founded the Chinese republic based on the 3 principles of the people.
Communism was a competing idea and it also looked like freedom to the people…The communist manifesto "workers of the world unite, You have nothing to lose but your chians.
All the communist idealists were betrayed.
Actually the USSR and China were hotbeds of revolutionary and freedom seeking ideas.
I would have rather taken my chances on the Qing Dynasty or the Czars rather than Stalin and Mao. The exterminations by both these people have been the most complete and thorough in History.

“Both countries have long-standing traditions of authoritarian rule peppered with the occasional atrocity. Both countries continue to operate in the same or a similar way. …It’s the way government has always worked there.”

Another bogus agrgument (and racist) for a justification as to why human beings need to be enslaved.

Dear Human Being,
It has come to my attention that your ancestors were slaves 2000 years ago. Even your ancestors were slaves 100 years ago. Therefore (since i got the guns anyway) please consider yourself and all others of your race my slave.

your truly
your dictator

The truth is ideas can change countries and the world very VERY quickly. That is another misguided idea that things linger and need long gradual change. The dynasties were thrown off forever in 1911. Communism originaly came on like an explosion.

“Without water there would be no fish”

[This message was edited by stumblefist on 08-19-01 at 10:52 PM.]

Traditional Societies in the Modern World

“but our whole money-oriented society, or just our whole time: we just cannot train traditionaly (ie “like back in the days”) and hard enough if at the same time we have to earn a living in our societies, in Beijing, New-York or Paris…”

Not true…Taiwan and Japan have traditional societies with deep involvement of students that are thouroughly integrated with the pace and business of modern life. As for instance taiwan university students will take their holidays 3 weeks in winter and 5 weeks in summer full time in temple mountain training. The rest of the year is not at all slack for them, full of events regualr training, outings, seminars and it is a process that contuinues all through all the stages of their life, with their teachers and coaches emphasising both a committment to social success and development of the art. These societies function as true brotherhoods within the larger society guiding the members in all aspects of their life (somewhat cultish).

“Without water there would be no fish”

hey gene

not only do we have "HEY-GENE"POSTS :smiley:
WE NOW HAVE 'gene im disgruntled posts.

:confused: :stuck_out_tongue:

lol!

“Always be ready”

Stumble, you are right, but 5 and 3 weeks in a year will never be as good as a couple of hours everyday…if it was enough to train 8 weeks a year to become a master, then we’d know it by now I guess…plus you’re talking students…students and working persons are different (I know, unfortunately I ceased being a student not too long ago heheheheh), and you cannot stay students for ever…plus Taiwan and Japan are really not good examples forr me, especially Japan…can you imagine it’s the only country in the world that has a syndrome of sudden death by overworking (karoshi)??
I know I’m sounding like “he never agrees” but really that’s what I think deep down inside: modern societies in the world wherever they are carry values and function in a way that will slowly make people unable/unwilling to preserve TCMA like they should be…
I hope you are right though, it’s a better view than mine :wink:

TCMA Society Survival

Crimson: Just to add a little, that was 3 and 5 week intensives in addition to daily practice. Not 3 to 4 hrs a day but at least 1 hr morning plus regular spaced practice 3 to 4 times/wk in the evenings plus weekend seminars etc.
Also once basics are learned and absorbed that stage is complete and constant full time is not so necessary.
The practice is really integrated with daily life. I think it can only happen in those countries where the social organization is tightly knit, like those students live on campus in a tightly coheseive social group even before the martial arts and the social cohesiveness continues past schooling. Those societies operate on a “wave” system with older waves looking after newer waves which amount to a life-long involvement. I think the society in Taiwan that i know preserves a traditional intact in the form of a brotherhood. I’ve heard similar stories about Japan.

Diego - Gene’s posts are propaganda posts
Mine are counter-propaganda posts.
It’s a gruelling task, but it needs to be done.
As such i must also counter your propaganda to label me “digruntled”.

“Without water there would be no fish”