Following the thread about bong sau in boxing....Here are....

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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Tons of links about ancient western martial arts I still prefer Wing Chun but,it is interresting to look at these things! :wink:

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O.J.

good stuff to look at.:cool:

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Don’t get me wrong…

… I’m really starting to love wing chun, but, I think a lot can be learned from old bare-knuckle boxers–especially those who fought prior to the 19th century. It’s almost like a completely seperate art from what we term boxing today. If anyone’s curious about the history of boxing, I suggest you old jong’s link to the western martial arts e-group and browse through the archieves. Interesting stuff.

Another good read for the history of western boxing is The Manly Art by Elliot J. Gorn.

Now, a question, if I may, for some of the more knowledgable folks on board. I heard somewhere that there was some interaction between western boxers/sailors and some chinese kung fu in the early 19th century. Is this true, and if so, what are the chances of any influence mixing between the two?

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Boxing bong sau

Smokin’ Joe Frasier used a high bong sau type movement. He would use it to cover up his head and face when he would be moving forward or to the inside. It seemed pretty effective, but he used it to close to his head and as a block, not to deflect the punch. And he NEVER yeilded to the other persons power. I know other boxing greats have used it in a similar fashion prior to Frazier, but can’t think of anyone in particular right now.

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No Gandolf 269…that was not a bong sao that Frazier used.
Thinks look similar but arent the same. Frazier, Norton and Archie Moore in different degrees used a “Shell” defense…
Frazier got bonked on the top of his head over the shell by the
not so blue meanie named Foreman. A bong sao is not a static posture.

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Just logged in and submitted the following reply TWICE, only to be told I wasn’t logged in :mad: What’s up with that?!

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Anyway yuanfen: G269 says ‘bong sau type movement’ not ‘bong sau’. He then says it’s a block, not a deflection:) .

I do agree with you that a bong should never be static. The only thing I think that was called a ‘shell’ when I boxed (though I’m stretching it a bit - I was only 9!) had a distinct forward elbow energy, but the wrist was above the elbow, so the similarity ends there…

Old Jong; good site.

I prefer wc too, but there are a coupla books by a John F.Gilbey which are pretty good. I was just reminding myself of the rather luridly titled ‘Secret Fighting Arts of the World’ on Amazon, with it’s chapters including:

  1. The Liverpool Nutter;
  2. Ganges Groin Gouge (not ALL western);
  3. Parisian Halitotic Attack (also familiar to anyone who’s been in a train carriage with a Japanese businessman!:frowning: )

There is a second one too, not apparently on Amazon, called ‘More Secret Fighting Arts of the World’! OK, so his imagination may not be so hot, but it’s still worth a read!!!:smiley:

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foreman

i have seen foreman use a bong..rolling action off his jab numerous times within the past 6 years(his come back)…i dont know about his older fights though..the newer ones he didnt look to interested in trading blows probably due to age

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mat

Gilbey is Robert Smith. He turned short visits to the orient into quitea writing factory. He is a good writer but opinions vary on the
depth of his knowledge of the arts that he mentions. BTW he
doesnt know much about wing chun but that like many list posters doesnt prevent him from having an opinion (negative).
he is a fan of Chen Man Ching’s taichi about which also opinions vary. Smith is an ex grappler and judoka BTW. One good judgement that he makes is his respect for the late GAMA-possibly the greatest wrestler ever. In his time Gama took on the best there was who were willing to meet with him. I had the great good fortune to see him -past his prime- when I was a kid.
You might want to read Smith’s last book “Martial Musings” .
Fun read-though my judgements on some things are different.

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Yes, I must admit: the two I read were very entertaining, but straining the bs meter somewhat! Knew I shoulda put a :rolleyes: next to that about his imagination…!

As far as I’m concerned anyone’s welcome to have an opinion: it’s when they insist it’s fact that I have problems!

Anyway, don’t remember the bit about Gama, which book is that in?

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Smith’s comments on Gama are in several places–in Asian Fighting Arts with Donn Draeger—there is a picture of Gama and also Gama’s brother. There is a brief reference also to Pulin behari Das a stick fighting and lathi master- now dead. My mother took lessons from him amd practised on me. Perhaps why i developed an early interest in martial arts.!!!Also see Gilbey’s book on Boxing and Wrestling- a Amazon or other web search should show it… also search for Gama. Old time full time sponsored Indian wrestling in pits has been giving way to point wrestling, bad Olympic wrestling(in India). But if you read some Gotch, Furey and others you will see glimpses of the rigorous training regimens that they have influenced.
India has had lots of martial arts including fist arts- vajra musthi-lightning fists. kusthi+ grappling, musthi=fistwork, sticks, knives, animal forms, throwing objects, chakras, garroting, swords, shields, gathka, bhojali, stilt wotk, various weapons and coordinated with internal work and proper breathing .