If you can find a school near to you, try Systema. It’s taught to/by Russian Spec Ops and the top police/bodyguard units. Failing that see if you can find combat Sombo anywhere.
We have a number of police/ prison staff/security people in our school, they all swear by it.
Originally posted by CD Lee [/i]Sombody mentioned Kenpo. I could be wrong, but is it not pretty normal to ingrain some very violent reactions to attacks in this style? … . Kenpo would scare me as an officer. Scared I would slam my fist into someones adams apple before I had a chance to think.
We are taught options, but you are correct in that a lot of the things we learn in Kenpo are violent/brutal. That’s the nature of fighing. My brother is with the sherrifs office and has used Kenpo effectively several times in the line of duty.
If learning specifically for police work you might try Sub Level-4 Kenpo. This is Dr. Ron Chapels’ version of American Kenpo. He is an ex cop, and I’ve heard that a lot of his techniques end with the opponent in position to be cuffed or otherwise restrained. There is also an emphasis on cavity strikes as well as controling your level of response.
Escrima was also recomended, and might be more available. It is an excellent style, although the Escrimadores I’ve worked out with were pretty violent. They do joint locks and takedowns as well.
Chin Na and other joint locking styles would be excellent as an adjunct, but I wouldn’t want to depend on joint locks alone. I don’t think Chin Na was meant to be a stand alone style although what I’ve seen of it was verry effective.
You might consider going through the academy first. You will get a fair ammount of training there. (I was the dummy for my brother when he went through, and I can tell you that the stuff they taught him worked!) After that you could check out what is available in your area and pick a style that fits well with what you are doing.
Good luck in your career.
Yeah, check around in the academy. There may be some experienced but disgruntled old-timer martial arts freak just dying to share his knowledge.
I just hope you get better training than the British police force, whose compulsory training on the newly released side-handle baton and telescopic baton consisted of just half a day on each!
The side-handle baton training consisted of strikes only, which is only half of its repertoire, and difficult to control without a lot more than half a day! Furthermore, the British batons have rubber grips, thus negating half of the momentum usually afforded by a smooth, friction free handle. Basically, with that kind of weapon, you don’t even need training in clouting someone.
A good aiki teacher with enforcement experience (if by some miracle you’re lucky enough to find one!!!) is all you’ll need, funky standing locks and all. Most of the people you’ll need to get dirty with will just need restraining until they’ve cooled off/sobered up, in a cell or there and then. I doubt many of them will have the faintest idea of, or certainly, natural reactions or even training, to work on the ‘try locking a chain’ principle.
I posted this on your thread on the other forum
http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/milpolvid.html
I think everyone in enforcement should take a look at Jing Quan Dao. It’s got some very interesting things going on - We are working on more. He even has a form for fighting with handcuffs.
tnwingtsun: i know the idea behind it, the locks, defenses, and my arms can work with it – when done at a moderate speed. however the people i mentioned are **** good at the locks they apply. locks are locks, and the deferences between elbow or shoulder locks from style to style are pretty minimal. basically, it’s a matter of skill and ability – their skill with applying the lock is FAR greater than mine at relaxing with it. 
the good part? it’s just motivation to get better with it, and at least i know i’m getting the attacks done against me correctly, so i have something legit to practice on. 
“Now all the top aikido guys are fighting…but there are no nice locks or even throws just wild haymaker punches!!!”
yeah,
“‘was there any aikido?’ asked ben. ‘not that i saw,’ said stephan otto, imitating the slow swing of a novice’s haymaker punch. ‘it was just brawling.’”
and that questioned self- defence value - yikes!
had liked the thought of praticing a hard style aikido some day. made me question…
taba,
I have never read the book nor have I personally trained in Yoshinkan Aikido.
I wouldn’t necessarily consider the aikido bar fight a dark mark on the effectiveness of the style. Most styles don’t work so well when drunk, some moreso than othes. Yoshinkan Aikido requires a keen sense of distance, timing, and center combined with fast flowing reflexes rooted in calmness. All of these requisites would be effected after a few drinks and be almost non-existant after a night of binge drinking combined with grief misdirected into random anger and violence.
Perhaps I’m wrong, but it is something to consider.
rubthebuddha>
“basically, it’s a matter of skill and ability – their skill with applying the lock is FAR greater than mine at relaxing with it.”
I’m with ya all the way on that one,I would guess that we’ve both trained with people that can “relaxe” the limbs(or whole body being a higher level).
And its hard to get to that point,I’m not where I’d like to be
but I know that it can be done because we’ve seen it and felt it.
Merryprankster>
" This is why the name of the game is “Control, Isolate, Submission.”
As a Corrections Officer thats the plan and the SOP,as we both know when the Excrement hits the fan “Control, Isolate, Submission” does not always work.
One of the screwed up things is that you can loose your job
giving out a BC powder to an inmate let alone using too much force.
I wanted to go home after the days work was done(to see my first new born),I had many reasons to give the job up(to many to list) but it was him(whoever became agressive) or me and whatever worked,worked,and we broke the rules every day
to survive if need be.
“It’s also why I don’t trust standing joint manipulation. Too many degrees of freedom of movement.”
I agree to a point,but the variables involved can turn volatile
in a split second.
Example.
If you’re shaking down 20 inmates and you’re the only one in the room(which happens alot),the only protection you’ve got is your wits,a radio(see breaking the rules) and some
under paid knuckle head watching your back from behind a part of a television transmitting apparatus, the reaction time to save your arse can sometimes be hopeless,thats when
" This is why the name of the game is “Control, Isolate, Submission.”
Will get you killed in a expedited way if you don’t have good back up,don’t get me wrong,I 'm not here to lecture you and I agree with you 100% about your statment.
“It’s also why I don’t trust standing joint manipulation. Too many degrees of freedom of movement.”
By the same token,“Control, Isolate, Submission.”
is just a part of the same puzzel as standing joint manipulation,they both have their places in different situations.
I guess that makes me a MMA in mind and body.
BTW,great posts from the both of youens:cool:
jmannix
“Question: What’s the most “practical” fighting style for someone in law enforcement?”
Your mind and alot of good advice from members on this forum
thats stood the watch,in many ways,its easy to spot them if you use your mind.
BJJ
simply for the fact that you’re strying to subdue/restrain and cuff a perp, which will almost always wind up on the ground. this is where i believe the “95% of fights go to the ground” saying comes from. a much different dynamic than just trying to kick the snot out of someone.
and as for the question of “well what about multiple perps?” i’ll answer with these questions…well what about your back up? what about your side arm?
There was a programme on TV last night where they showed both CCTV and police camera footage of street brawls and robberies in Nottingham, one of the UK’s most violent towns. Not one shot of people rolling on the ground grappling there, it was all stand up punch/kick/baseball bat stuff.
There was one lovley bit of CCTV footage - guy in a corner shop threatens the gilr on the till with a large knife. So whole family steam out with bats and lay into him.
As far as the police go - in most cases by the time they got there it had finished. Where it hadn’t I still didn’t see any ground work. Not to say you shouldn’t know how to operate on the ground, but I’m sceptical of that 95% figure.
Cheers
Really my advice is learn everything you can. Last year a friend of the family who was SAPD as well as a swat team member was killed in a struggle with a guy who just had a few warrants…nothing major. Anyway, the policeman who died was a golden gloves champion boxer, and who knows what else he had learned along the way. A stuggle ensued (I believe they were standing) and somehow the punk wrestled the gun out of the policeman’s holster and shot and killed him. Now this is a veteran swat officer I’m talking about here. Things happen, even to those who have trained well. L/E folks especially need to be trained in all ranges of combat, both armed and unarmed. I would tend to stray away from traditional styles and go for a more L/E and/or military oriented style, along with some grappling for groundwork. These skills must be developed ASAP because you might have to use groundwork or standup on your first day or ten years down the road.
Come to think of it the trial for the guy who killed the policeman is going on right now. There were a couple witnesses that saw the whole thing too. Texas is not very forgiving when it comes to cop-killers. Barring some kind of technicality that guy is toast.
riots are another completely different dynamic than 1, 2 or 3 cops taking on a single resisting perp. going to ground against multiples is retarded.
ewallace -
I would tend to stray away from traditional styles and go for a more L/E and/or military oriented style
Xingyiquan is over 1000 yrs old, and was taught as the MILITARY style in China due to its direct effectiveness. Maybe you would be more thrilled by some NEW way of killing/contolling people using your bare hands. After all is said and done, physics, and human nature work the same today as 1000 years ago.
I think a person needs a good teacher. Statements about new vs. traditional are steeped in subjective experience, that I am willing to bet, is limited by a lack of experiential knowlage.
CD Lee
Of course a person needs a good teacher, that’s a given. And I do not discount traditional styles. I wouldn’t wager too much on your bet.
The fact that it’s 1000 years old and is or was taught to the CHINESE military is irrelevent. One would probably be hard pressed to find a teacher in the states that has direct experience training the chinese military. Laws of excessive force change with time and with national laws. So do the weapons that one may encounter in the field. My point is that if one needs to get up to speed quickly on effective techniques that consist primarily of the need to restrain, traditional styles may not be the way to go (over the long run is a different story). That is just my opinion. Just because a style is not 1000 years old or is not chinese in no way shape or form makes it any less effective.
Xing Yi a 1000 years old? I don’t think so, I thought it was developed in the 1600’s at the earliest. It was taught by a general as it was easy and quick to learn for some of his footsoldiers.
As for subjective experience - aside from my own experience in traditional CMA I have a friend with many years Xing YI experience behind him. He rates it as a good powerful striking system for one to one, but of limited value outside of that, and certainly of very limited value for law enforcement.
going to ground against multiples is retarded.
Actually, staying on the ground against multiples is retarded. Not knowing how to move around well down there is doublely retarded.
I think,generally speaking,if you can choose in any way then don´t go to ground at all.It seems that many sources treat this with this common view.That´s a terrible place to be against multiples or even stronger/larger opponent(s).
If you have to,then work down there only to get up,why to be there on purpose?
Shuai Chiao
but I’m biased
I think,generally speaking,if you can choose in any way then don´t go to ground at all
Sure.
But we are talking about law enforcement here. Watch COPS on fox sometime (not sure if you get it over in finland) but time after time when cops are chasing a fleeing suspect and catch up they both go to the ground. In fact a couple months ago I helped an undercover policemen restrain a very beligerent and drunk individual at a bar. Guess where most of the scuffle took place.