has anyone here seen or or made themsleves a chi sao dummy for practicing techniques on? if so how did you make it?
The object is not to hurt someone else, but to stop them from hurting you
hmmm…
Perhaps it’s called a Mook Jong, aka Wooden Dummy?
Not quite sure, just throwing that one in the air…
Nope, i have a mook jong, what i’m looking for is a dummy to drill your Chi Sao technique, as in sticky hands. 
The object is not to hurt someone else, but to stop them from hurting you
Egads Jeff- do you have a good wing chun teacher? Ask him. Chi sao with a dummy?Sorry, I am still laughing. i will get over it.As Scarlett Ohara sez-tomorrow is another day.
How would a dummy help your chi sao it would not move and couldn’t give you any energy to work with.
My advise is to train with another person.
Not nice to laugh at others
Hello,
Actually, I have seen a dummy with spring arms in an article some time ago. I believe that it was in MA Training and the author was Mike Young.
Basically this consisted of one arm which was welded to a coil spring from an automobile. It provided some give and reaction to force applied to it. It is not a replacement for Chi Sau but this might be what Jeff is thinking of. Also, I heard a rumor that there was a similiar type fo device with two arms…not sure about that though.
When one does not have a steady partner than one sometimes needs to improvise and make do with other things. The “hanging” Jong is a relatively new device which was developed for the specific needs of some practicioners. Maybe a “Chi Sau” dummy is next 
Peace,
Dave
I suppose…
I could also see a newer student wanting a ‘Chi Sao Dummy’ to strengthen the shoulders as well as learning the timing of strikes - not necessarily for the sensitivity.
Tell me that you don’t remember or even still encounter the burning in your shoulders during chi sao! Remember hearing ‘Loosen up - don’t be so heavy’ when you shoulders feel like they are going to fall off?
Just a thought…
Kevin
Continued blessings in your life and your training.
The key to understanding is to open your mind and your heart and then the eyes will follow.
like I said…
Perhaps it’s called a Mook Jong, aka Wooden Dummy?
The Jook Jong (Bamboo Dummy), part of several mainland lineages, was sometimes called a “chi sao” dummy because, due to the flexible nature of the bamboo, you had to really develop the sticking aspect to ensure the bamboo didn’t leak or run around and smack you. In modern times, as the quality and availability of good bamboo has fluctuated, some have tried to make versions with spring arms (some in the Yip Man lineages have experiented with this as well).
Rgds,
RR
Thanks again WH!
As always, your clever reply helped tremendously!
I await your clever thread on ‘How to ‘roll’ with the Mook’! :rolleyes:
In addition to my earlier post I am adding that I have never heard of a Chi Sao dummy (Thanks for the post Rene!)nor have I ever seen one for sale. But I can see where a new student would ask about it.
Kevin
Continued blessings in your life and your training.
The key to understanding is to open your mind and your heart and then the eyes will follow.
Bamboo Dummy
Hi Rene,
Zopa had sent me a photo of the Bamboo Dummy but I can’t seem to find it. I was wondering if you had a photo of one or could provide any of the dimensions. If so e-mail me and I would also be glad to post it here so everyone could see it. Thanks.
Peace,
Dave
Hi Dave and Jeff:
I was laughing at the idea and not the poster.
Apologies for any mis-perception. You can’t chi sao with a wooden dummy. It is an inanimate object. Although I have seen photos of a contemporary generation master perhaps two working the dummy blindfolded!As far back as 1976 I saw a dummy for sale- made of metal with two sets of hands and legs with springs so that two persons could work on it at the same time.
Kernsprecht briefly had created a contraption where
you stick your arms into sleeves of a machine and move them Sorry-IMO there is no substitute for chi sao.
Yuan Fen
Two things:
- Shut
- Up
I don’t have a steady partener to train with Fen, so i don’t get a lot of chi sao practice time, of course there’s nothing as good as having a partner to do chi sao with, but since i don’t have one, i need to improvise.
Nothing wrong with this IMO, i want it to practice variations of strikes strikes and combos, and then when i do chi sao with someone i can try them out.
I suppose you think mook jongs are dumb to?
The object is not to hurt someone else, but to stop them from hurting you
Ok Jeff:
The floor on this thread is all yours.
Sorry.
The idea of a chi sau dummy IS stupid. It’s best to get your head out of that line of thinking, or your Wing Chun will be a lost cause. You’re better off not doing chi sau at all.
I am not suggesting that the wooden dummy is for "chi sau"ing. It’s certainly not. However, since you have a mook jong, it might be more worth your while to train what you can on that, without the idea of chi sau in your head. Like yuen fan said, it IS an inanimate object.
If you understand what chi sau is about (really understand), then you’ll understand what he means by that. If you don’t, in other words, if you can’t accept that, then it just confirms that you’re better off not chi sauing at all. Put that time to better use.
Train hard, but train smart.
Stupid???
Hi WH,
I am sure that to many the stance in Wing Chun looks “stupid”. To others the idea of only having three forms may appear stupid as some equate more with better.
While I agree that Chi Sau can only be done with a partner I can sympahtize with Jeffs plight. What does one do if one does not have a steady partner? There are several things one can do which will aid ones Chi Sau. I once posted an exercise using a Bicycle Inner Tube. This, like the idea of a Chi Sau Dummy, is only to aid one in times when no partner is available. When one is alone then one may need to improvise. Naturally, one will have errors which will need to be corrected when one gets the opportunity to touch hands. Still, if one were to develope a dummy used to drill the movements of Chi Sau then I don’t see why it would have to be “stupid”.
Of course, practice in the air will aid one but I think Jeff is looking for some interaction which wil aid his developement without the benefit of a partner. If so I would direct him to Jessie Glover as he has developed some things specific to Chi Sau and the “muscles” used in this exercise. Of course, the idea is to be sensitive not strong 
I don’t think that it is “stupid” for one to desire another method to aid in his training. Such a device may not meet all the criteria but it can pave the way for something better in the future. In todays age of technological advances we may one day have “virtual” chi sau partners. Of course this would never happen if we limit ourselves or our minds because it has not been done before or is considered “stupid”
Just a thought.
Peace,
Dave
Virtual Chi Sao
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> In todays age of technological advances we may one day have “virtual” chi sau partners. [/quote]
The technology already exists. Just needs someone to adapt it.
Max
Yooby Yoody
“Such a device may not meet all the criteria but it can pave the way for something better in the future”
It won’t pave the way. It will deter one’s training, developing misconceptions of what chi sau is.
[This message was edited by Whipping Hand on 11-07-01 at 08:57 AM.]
Stagnent Wing Chun
Hi WH,
So are you saying that there is no room to improvise or add anything to aid in the study of Wing Chun? If one approaches things with the right frame of mind is it really going to degrade your skills? Have you or your Sifu changed anything in your approach or do you do things exactly like those before you. If so I would expect to see several students from your lineage perform things exactly alike with almost no deviation.
I suppose the developement of “Poon Sau” which is relatively new, should never have happened because they did not have it before. Imagine the skills lost by incorporating learning how to roll :rolleyes:
Whipping Hand, I fully belive in not adding things for the sake of adding things but as times change new training methods are sometimes needed to keep up with the times. I am not saying this is the case here, but Jeff does not have a partner and is seeking the best alternative. You advocated the Jong, perhaps you would be willing to expound on that and point him in the right direction as to how he could specifically improve his “Chia Sau” with the Jong.
Peace,
Dave
Dave,
I don’t have any pictures handy. There’s one of the late Yiu Kai sifu’s version in Leung Ting’s Roots & Branches of Wing Tsun if that helps.
Basically, according to the old accounts, the Muk Yan Jong was composed of the mast of the Red Junk (where the arms and leg could be removed and hidden when needed) while the Gwun Jong (Pole Dummy) and Juk Jong used the cabin walls. For the Gwun Jong, lengths of pole were placed in holes, while for the Juk Jong, lengths of bamboo. A beginner could start with one and increase up to patterns of 5, 7, or 9. (you can see a picture of the Gwun Jong here)
Rgds,
RR