centreline and open faceups

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

since i started kung fu (dont bother going to my profile - about 7 months, im a beginner) ive had a choice between two different hand positions. the first is a centreline faceup - i think its pretty similar to wing chun. hands in centre, deflect incoming punches outwards. the other one is with your two hands ‘open’, elbows down, hands about as far apart as your opponents fists. (its from southern mantis). the idea is for attacking punches to come in through the middle gap, and for you to bring your hands inwards and deflect them away.

soon after i first started, i decided to concentrate on the open faceup. but the other night, sifu demonstrated the centre line faceup for about 5 minutes with a disi heng attacking, and it looked very effective, very easy. i approached a disi heng after training, and told him i was having trouble deciding which one to use. being careful not to degrade the open faceup, he reccommended using centre line as the best defensive option.

now, for those whove read all that crap - can you please give me advice? that particular disi heng uses centre line a lot (so it could of been biased), and i know of another one that uses mantis a lot. i could (and will) train both, but i want to be able to defend myself before the end of this year, and id like to concentrate on one hand faceup.

if you have time, and you use either centre line or a mantis stance that deflects attacks inwards, can you write me a few lines on how realistic it is, and your experience with it?

thanks.

2

Well, from what little I know, both guards are based upon the centerline - the closed “wing chun” guard initially occupies the centerline, while the open “mantis” or “muay thai” guard gives the opponent the centerline, but attacks it if he comes in on it. I guess it’s like a wedge or a funnel. I’m sure each is better suited for different situations - anyone know exactly what?

3

for defending use the centerline closed. This seems as though it best attacks their center line.

For fighting , centerline open. This seems as though can attack outside the centerline.

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

4

where do you want to be when attacking.

The question is, when you come in for and attack/counter do you want to be inside Inside his hands) or outside(outside his hand off to one side, or even behind him.). If you want to get inside then you closed wing chung style guard is better cause any attack that comes in will be deflected outward, or if your just driving it, it would be easier to wedge his hands outward giving you access to his inside. If you want to be on the outside the open gaurd is much better suited. it is much easier to deflect incoming strike in twords his onwn centerline giving you better access to his outside. Also the open gaurd is better for hook and roundhouse punches. Less reaction time is needed due to the shourter distance you arm must travel.

just my thoughts

Assumption is the mother of tragedy. Just keep and open mind and be ready

5

I’m usually shorter than my opponent, with less reach. For me, dominating the centerline from the start gives me the advantage, since I don’t have to waste time manouvering to gain it.

6

thanks, you four.

tigerdragon - for me (i dont start fights) the decision is more of a ‘which style is best for defending myself against punches, then countering quickly and effectively’. so maybe centre line, no_know?

its weird, but i find centre line easier to defend against circular attacks with. thats probably because i train against maybe 150 roundhouse punches a week, and im getting pretty comfortably at the reflex of striking them (im aware that in a combat situation, its entirely different). so i think i have to decide which guard position is better for blocking STRAIGHT punches. thats why ive been training the mantis guard - to create a gap which im ready to close down the centre. however, ive realized its harder than i thought, and although a few years from now the mantis might be more effective, i can see the advantage of having my hands already in the centre.

umm, so are straight punches easy to deflect with a centre line faceup? (im talking relatively easy. im sure that anyone with a few years experience would find them easy).

jasbourne - thanks. would the opposite hold true - that mantis is good for people with long reach?

oh, and i know that i should just experiment :slight_smile: and i will tonight. this isnt really a ‘please tell me exactly how i should develop my kung fu’ post, this is more of an attempt to get people to toss a few ideas up.

7

idea.

I have heard many people say that it depends on what you want your opponent to do, if you have the mantis guard, you will most likely be attacked with straight punching.
Being a capoeirista i probably would change my hands all the time. We have some different ways of holding with the hands in capo, but they are never static.
When i try to play kungfu or other MA people often get annoyed because i dont stand still and wait for attacks.

8

I don’t use the closed centerline at all, but I’ve had to face it quite a few times. My guard is more like the mantis/shaolin guard, only slightly modified. My hands are held in loose fists, not closed, not open (I guess you could say a relaxed mantis fist), so I can hook/grab faster if the option is presented to me. I also have my hands slightly higher (cheek level, rather than the chin/throat level), and the lead hand is held in closer.

It looks like the middle ground between the standard boxer’s guard, and the shaolin/mantis guard. This works best for me when fighting outside, and inside. I like the way my hands are where I need them for things like deflections, quick hand combos, and hooking and roundhouse hand strikes. It’s also better for moving to my opponent’s outer gates (I have a predominantly south-paw stance, but I can switch if I need to change the pace of the game), because the foot placement required to use that particular guard places the lead hand/foot a little further forward, so I can off angle quicker.

From my experience, the guard I use is better for evasions, and cushioning strikes if I need to change ranges quickly. It’s weak against some of the straight forward strikes (especially the front thrust kick, and low line jabs aimed at the body), but it lets me use my hands a little easier. The closed center guard seems to be a better guard for straight forward aggression. It’s great for stopping the hooking strikes if you shoot inside their punching range quickly. It’s also strong for jamming up the opponent’s centerline making it difficult to strike up the middle. Another thing I noticed is how quickly you can fire a barrage of straight hand strikes right up the middle before your opponent can effectively react to stop them, leaving them on the defensive (I learned that from Highlander the hard way ;)). But, it also seems to limit your hooking, and circular strikes (although the elbow strikes still seem easy enough). Just from my experience, I’m sure someone can overcome this stuff.

But I’ve also noticed that the footwork seems to keep the movements shorter. I know it’s good for side stepping, but the guys I’ve faced haven’t been able to gain much ground on some of their evasions leaving them still in effective range for most of my punches and all of my kicks, if the inital attack fails.

As far as takedowns, I’ve noticed both suffer pretty much the same, but the open faced guard seems easier to sprawl from. I’m not sure, though since I’m no expert. :slight_smile:

Jaguar Wong

9

Hands centerline seem as though they would get jammed when you are attacked along the centerline. Hands spread can deflect and come over or block and strike inside.

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

10

True, but it depends on your opponent’s hands. If they’re attacking the centerline from slightly outside (like from the shoulders), the centerline hand positioning can jam right up the middle, slicing right up the striking arm like a wedge. But if they’re attacking from the center, then you can shift your body, and deflect the strike, if you’re fast enough.

Jaguar Wong

11

ged asked for simple~ “if your fast enough” might take the practice time ged’s not talking about.

Of course what you said is true~. Also if they come to center from slightly off center, you can intercept, control the middle and bypass the arm with a direct line to the face, chest, body, groin. Merely perhaps a possibility. Some-such-ish. :~>

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

12

“would the opposite hold true - that mantis is good for people with long reach?”

I don’t really know if that is true. If you have long arms, you might want to try training that and see how it works for you. I know that generally, tall people with long legs do better at tae kwon do, and so forth. I reckon all techniques have their optimum applications :slight_smile:

13

long arms = shaolin longfist or boxing

“Damned be the day that befalls us in a most hostile manner that shall compromise our Country, and damned be the great lengths at which are required of to stir our Patriotism.” - Anonymous

14

Thank you for showing us your puscy…cats

Long have I been interested to see JasBourne’s puscy…(cats).

JasBourn, I like your puscy…cats.

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

15

ok a little more

ged,

I wasn’t neccesarily talking about starting a fight. Think about this…If your are in a gaurd stance, the fight has laready started, regaurdless if a strike has ben thrown or not. You have both already shown intention to fight, and at this point adreanaline is already rising.

Personally at this point, I think it is dangerous, even carless, to wait for your opponent to throw the first strike. The more chances you give your opponent, no matter how much training you have, the higher the odds climb against you. So, I feel it is a better idead to move in first.

With that said, I would also like to add to my original advice. Why not try a gaurd along the lines of a Karate gaurd : Leading hand up at chin or cheek level, and back hand closer to horizontal hovering at the lower chest area.

I have played around with a lot of differnet gaurds but always go back to the karate gaurd. It, like any other gaurd, has its weaknesses, but gives me the best defence against all strikes. It is definately better then most gaurds for gaurding low shots. After all, the head isn’t the only target. If you were to fight me, it would actualy be one of my last targets. I would hit you everywhere else to set up a clean shot to the head. I might even do something as simple as hit you in the arm, just to distract you.

Remember when you train, you have to train as if you will have to fight a trined fighter when being attacked on the street.

Just my thoughts

Assumption is the mother of tragedy. Just keep and open mind and be ready

16

thanks for everyone who took the time to post.

im over my little ‘wow centreline looks cool’ stage, and back to my ‘i want to be a praying mantis’ way of training. heh.

ive got a friend who did karate (one of those ppl who became a black belt at the age of 12, and then stopped it, but still think they know everything) and if he uses the same guard as the one you (tigerdragon) mentioned, it reminded me a bit of windscreen wipers, deflecting most attacks outwards. similar to centreline? or am i way off? regardless, thanks for everyones info.

take care.

17

Tigerdragon,
I’ve seen (and tried) the guard you’re talking about, but the thing that I’ve noticed is that it’s weak against attacks that alternate from the left and right gates. One of the attacks that I’ve seen get past is a simple brawler style jab (which is somewhat stopped by the guard) followed by a rear hand hook, then a lead hand hook. One of both of those hooks land quite a few times.

If you’re using that type of guard, you have to “aggressively defend”, meaning you have to stop the initial attack, and blast with your rear hand (usually a good sternum, or shoulder shot stops the other attacks), but I’ve only seen one person that was good enough to do that, and that was a point sparring tournament. Also, sometimes that lead hand can be too far out for your own good. I’ve been successful (only sometimes) at attacking one side, then using their reaction to check the lead hand and move to the outer gate behind them.

But like you said, every guard has it’s weaknesses. I’m not saying that yours doesn’t work, I’m just saying I haven’t seen people that could use it yet. I know there are plenty of people out that that can (like a lot of Kyokushin Kai guys, but I don’t see many of them), but most people think it’s a lot safer than it really is. It’s more of an aggresive posture in my eyes.

Jaguar Wong

18

excellent points

Jaguar

You are correct in your observations. But your looking at it from a totaly defensive point of view. Thats not how I fight. I am very agressive. So that gaurd works best for me. That boxer combination you described is actualy not all that hard to defend against. I’m not going to get into description now, but it depends heavily on the way you fight. Not just your style, but houw you use your style, and the tools your style gives you. With the way I fight, the motions, andgles, targets, and weapons I use, they karate style gaurd works best for me. But like I did say, and you pointed out, It does have its weaknesses, like any other gaurd. I just have to step up my aggresivness to try to counter the weaknesses.

Just my thoughts.

Assumption is the mother of tragedy. Just keep and open mind and be ready

19

one more thing

ged,

The guard I described can actualy be used to deflect in or out. This is because you have one hand on the outside (lead hand) in the vicinity of your shoulder about chin or cheek level, while the other hand in at your centerline at your mid to upper chest. I tend to deflect hook punches and roundhouse punches out and attack their centerline, while jabs and strait thrust punches get deflected in and I move in and attack from behind them so to speak.

Dose that clear it up a little?

Assumption is the mother of tragedy. Just keep and open mind and be ready