By my lying eyes

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Mixed Martial Arts
1

I was just wondering how many of you train for sensitivity?
I have found that training blindfolded is the superior way to feel and respond appropriately to ones energy. I find it amazing that I can feel and then appropriately respond to someone with out using my eyes.
After all is that the art of traping? To respond to the opponents actions, rather than to react to his movements. There’s a huge difference, the sense of touch (traping) is unbelievable. I was just wondering if anyone else sees it?

Chi soa is one exercise to fine tune the sense of touch. But there are others, can anyone out there give me, or explain how they train for sensitivity?

And just for fun! How many of you, believe traping will not work in real-life situation?
Let’s get the ball rolling.
Sincerely C.A.G.

2

i practice chi sau to improve my sensitivity and other things and i agree it is very beneficial to do with your eyes closed, does anyone do chi gerk with there eyes closed?

if so how?

I find it almost impossible to balance on one leg with my eyes closed.

3

EXTREMELY IMPORTANT!!!

Hello Everyone!

Chi sao and other energy/sensitivity drills are extremely important in developing your trapping hand skills! Without the energy/sensitivity developed from chi sao and other sensitivity drills, your trapping will be only mechanics! In a real fight situation, mechanics only will not get it, if you know what I mean! And yes, if you are adequately training in trapping hands, it definitely works in real fight situations!

I have always said that the magic formula for developing effective trapping hand skills is:

(1) Energy/Sensitivity Training
(2) Reference Point Trapping Drills - Simple and Compound
(3) Mook Jong Training
(4) Combative Application Training

4

trapping hand method

Sifu Lamar,

Thanks for your reply. Could you please elaborate somewhat on your 4 steps in Chi Sao training. Especially the second point that refers to refernce point?

I am interested in furthering my understand of trapping hand application and chi sao.

thanks very much,

Scott

5

Re: EXTREMELY IMPORTANT!!!

Originally posted by SifuLMDII
[B]Hello Everyone!

Chi sao and other energy/sensitivity drills are extremely important in developing your trapping hand skills! Without the energy/sensitivity developed from chi sao and other sensitivity drills, your trapping will be only mechanics! In a real fight situation, mechanics only will not get it, if you know what I mean! And yes, if you are adequately training in trapping hands, it definitely works in real fight situations!

I have always said that the magic formula for developing effective trapping hand skills is:

(1) Energy/Sensitivity Training
(2) Reference Point Trapping Drills - Simple and Compound
(3) Mook Jong Training
(4) Combative Application Training [/B]

How does one develope sensitivity for “collecting energy” without developing their root? How does one cultivate the ability to listen to the hands of another when they have not been taught to go “within” and seek their own structural weaknesses? I wonder how folks in JKD develope their root–so that they can possess necessary “listening hands” needed for trapping and redirectional skills. Bruce knew about the importance of developing a root–yet I never hear JKD practitioners speak of rooting. Without a root how can a person receive incoming energy without emergence of structural flaws.

What does your Energy/Sensitivity Training consist of?

What are Reference Point Trapping Drills? Simple and Compound?

Do you know the Mook Jong form? Who taught it to you for not even Bruce learned the entire wooden dummy form? How can your Mook Jong training be effective without strong basic training which is introduced in the preceding three forms? Is your form modified? Why?

What is Combative Application Training?

I’ve always wondered why someone would study JKD and not Wing Chun. Wing Chun was Bruce’s Mother Art and the only art that he received formal training in. Bruce’s base knowledge was made possible due to his Wing Chun training and from there he referenced all future training. If one finds their car to not be in optimal condition do they junk the car or fine-tune the problem?

Bruce only had rougly 5 years of training–under the guidance of Wong Shun Leung, not Yip Man. His interaction with Yip was by all accounts brief and infrequent. He ended his training at the tender age of eighteen. What does a 13, 14, 15, 16,17 or 18 year old understand about motion? I myself would not trust the opinion of an 18 year old with merely five years of formal training. His body isn’t even fully formed yet! Yet because of a confrontation Bruce found his Wing Chun to be lacking, so what does he do? He decides that Wing Chun failed him and doesn’t even consider the fact that he failed Wing Chun. If Wing Chun was so ineffective why did he repeatedly call upon Leung Sheung for tea and martial discussion while filming the “Game of Death”?

Was Bruce skilled–yes. Was his Wing Chun training incomplete–you bet your backside. I often wonder how good he could have been with serious Wing Chun training—not five years from the age of 13-18. Think about a high school kid you might know from your neighborhood—would you trust his opinions over those of an experienced senior citizen with a lifetime of martial training (Bruce compared to Yip Man)? Apparently the JKD community does!

Just very curious,
Chris

Just curious,
Chris

6

Nicely said Chris!
Although there are a few points that you made, that I believe are incorrect. I do not believe that Bruce felt that wing chun had failed him. (My sifu states then he believes Bruce Lee would have continued his training if he could find a master in the United States.) At the time Bruce Lee came to the states, almost no one heard of wing chun before. He needed to expand his knowledge of fighting, and he only way he could do that was to train against natural street fighters.
Remember back in the late '50s and early '60s A 18yr old punk Chinese kid, who weighed around 125-135lbs.
(In the United States he wasn’t very small person.)
So he gathered up fighters. to train with and against,
Jesse Glover (a judo expert), James DeMile (a heavyweight boxer) ,Ed Hart (also a boxer semi pro) and Leroy Garcia (a mountain man) to name a few.
Bruce put his skills up against each of these men to see how he would fare. Through the adapting and modifying of wing chun, based upon his results, He develop the base that He needed to fight against man who were much bigger and more aggressive than what he is seen back in China.
As I understand it, Bruce flew back to China a few times to show YIP MAN what he had done. And as I understand it (just hearsay.) YIP MAN approved of Bruce’s modifications. Anyhow he continued his own training! (and DID HIS OWN THING!)

I have never heard my sifu say anything bad about classical wing chun. Although he does state that we do not to do classical,(WC) Then he shows us why and how we have adapted and change.
They (classical Wing Chun ) do their thing, and we (Wing Chun Do.) Do ours.
Everything we have is from our ROOTS, it is our base that we can build off of.
In my opinion you need to build a base. After YOU have created your base,you must then build off of it. To expand and grow.
You must pay respect to tradition, but do not allow yourself to the caught up in it.
Again that is just my opinion.
Sincerely C.A.G.

7

Hi Curtis,

Thanks for the reply…I had never heard that Bruce would have continued to study Wing Chun. I believe he would have had the oppurtunity in Seattle…perhaps the individuals he encountered weren’t that skillful. Like I said in another post, bad Wing Chun is very easy to find. When someone sees good Wing Chun they are not likely to easily forget it.

I was hoping that Lamar would give some insight into the training methodology he spoke of earlier.

Do you guys train your root? How?

Once again, Thanks Curtis,
Chris

8

HI Chris
I to would like to hear for Mr.Lamar, on his training methods.
HUMM cannot argue for or against good wing chun. But likewise I’m sure you have never seen any of these man I just named, they all are world-class martial art’s ,in their own right. (I’ve never seen anyone that was better!)
I believe the problem here is, you must evaluate each person as their own individual, not to classify them as a group or hole.
I to have seen some pretty bad Jeet Kune Do, ( as well as Wing Chun,) in the years and I have trained. But likewise I have seen some incredibly skilled martial art’s as well over the years. (It’s the person that makes the art, not the other way around.) granted some arts art better than others, but so are people.
Bruce Lee must have been incredibly skilled. (Is that from wing chun? Or Bruce’s determination to become the best fighter possible.) who know!?. (I believe it was Bruce Lee )
But what I can tell you is, that those men I named in my earlier posting, each state they could not hold candle to Bruce Lee. And between you and I (and the world) I’ve never seen anyone (in any martial art) that could hold candle to them.
You must give wing chun its do. But do not give others grief because they do something different. For they may be just as skilled.
In my opinion, both Jesse Glover, and James DeMile are both world-class TRAPPERS, their sensitivity and skill level are far beyond anyone else is I’ve ever seen! (And I and seen some great wing chun masters, that did not have their abilities.)
Do not be so quick to judge others, is the only advice I can give you.
Except maybe?
Learn anything you can, from everyone who you meet, and never stop growing.
Sincerely C.A.G.

9

To improve my sensitivity, I brush my teeth everyday. It really helps!!!Hope this Helps YOU!!!

10

Re: Re: EXTREMELY IMPORTANT!!!

Hello Chris,

My energy/sensitivity training consists mostly of don chi sao and seong chi sao. But there are other energy drills such as cross arm chi sao, lop sao/bong sao drill, pak sao cycle drill, “5-way” energy drill, inner lop sao cycle drill ect. To answer the question of how I work the mook jong, I just “flow” with it. There isn’t a “108 heavy bag” form either. I don’t understand why you think that learning the form is the only way to learn to use the mook. At one time whoever came up with the “108 form” just “flowed” with it correct? Then he codified what he did into a form to preserve it. But there is clearly more than one way to the same result. As for the “rooting” stuff there are some JKD folks that get into it, and some that don’t. I’m more interested in being mobile than being rooted. The goal of JKD is not to become a WC man. JKD is a hybrid art and like all hybrids it is not specifically either of its parents. I can make the energy stuff work for me in application. Am I properly “rooted”? I don’t know. I don’t particularly care. I’m sure there are advantages from WC that as a JKD man I loose from doing things a different way. But there are also advantages I gain from doing things a different way. One more thing. I don’t think that 5 years of direct training under some of the best WC men in the world is anything to sneeze about. And I don’t think that being a teenager has any relavency whatsoever.

Regards,

John M. Drake

Originally posted by Chris99
[B]

How does one develope sensitivity for “collecting energy” without developing their root? How does one cultivate the ability to listen to the hands of another when they have not been taught to go “within” and seek their own structural weaknesses? I wonder how folks in JKD develope their root–so that they can possess necessary “listening hands” needed for trapping and redirectional skills. Bruce knew about the importance of developing a root–yet I never hear JKD practitioners speak of rooting. Without a root how can a person receive incoming energy without emergence of structural flaws.

What does your Energy/Sensitivity Training consist of?

What are Reference Point Trapping Drills? Simple and Compound?

Do you know the Mook Jong form? Who taught it to you for not even Bruce learned the entire wooden dummy form? How can your Mook Jong training be effective without strong basic training which is introduced in the preceding three forms? Is your form modified? Why?

What is Combative Application Training?

I’ve always wondered why someone would study JKD and not Wing Chun. Wing Chun was Bruce’s Mother Art and the only art that he received formal training in. Bruce’s base knowledge was made possible due to his Wing Chun training and from there he referenced all future training. If one finds their car to not be in optimal condition do they junk the car or fine-tune the problem?

Bruce only had rougly 5 years of training–under the guidance of Wong Shun Leung, not Yip Man. His interaction with Yip was by all accounts brief and infrequent. He ended his training at the tender age of eighteen. What does a 13, 14, 15, 16,17 or 18 year old understand about motion? I myself would not trust the opinion of an 18 year old with merely five years of formal training. His body isn’t even fully formed yet! Yet because of a confrontation Bruce found his Wing Chun to be lacking, so what does he do? He decides that Wing Chun failed him and doesn’t even consider the fact that he failed Wing Chun. If Wing Chun was so ineffective why did he repeatedly call upon Leung Sheung for tea and martial discussion while filming the “Game of Death”?

Was Bruce skilled–yes. Was his Wing Chun training incomplete–you bet your backside. I often wonder how good he could have been with serious Wing Chun training—not five years from the age of 13-18. Think about a high school kid you might know from your neighborhood—would you trust his opinions over those of an experienced senior citizen with a lifetime of martial training (Bruce compared to Yip Man)? Apparently the JKD community does!

Just very curious,
Chris

Just curious,
Chris [/B]

11

Hello JMDrake,

I never said you needed to know the Mook form in order to work with a dummy. I have one bolted in my basement wall and I don’t know the Mook form. I have been taught some motions on the dummy by my Sifu—who knows the Mook form.

What is “flow”?
Jackie Chan once worked on the Mook in a movie “Rumble in the Bronx”, and it was terrible–really bad in fact.

The dummy is not comparable to the heavy bag so you lose me here.

Whoever made up the Mook form was trying to convey information and concepts–not just randomly “flowing” around a wooden post.

I am mobile within my rooting, what makes you think I’m not?

If JKD is a hybrid art…what arts were specifically blended by Bruce?

You are right, 5 years of training under some of the best WC people in the world is nothing to sneeze at. However, how much time do you think the Grandmaster is going to afford the 13 year old kid? How much understanding will a 13 year old kid have of the curriculum over say a more mature, physically developed young adult? What is the attention span of a 13 year old?

I think it does matter somewhat.

Regards,
Chris

12

Hello Chris,

I based my statement about the Mook form on when you said “Do you know the Mook Jong form? Who taught it to you for not even Bruce learned the entire wooden dummy form? How can your Mook Jong training be effective without strong basic training which is introduced in the preceding three forms? Is your form modified? Why?”

But if you think that it’s possible to be able to effectively use the mook without knowing the mook form then we would agree. However I would go a step further and say that it’s possible to effectively use the mook without knowing SLT or the other two WC forms either. After all there are other martial arts that use the mook or something similair and have a complete different set of forms. And, like I said, you don’t have to know a form before learning to work the heavy bag. And yes, I know mook training is far different from a heavy bag. But the point is you can learn techniques that you can use on such a piece of equipment without first learning forms. And for the record I think the SLT is great and I’ve started working it myself. But I already knew how to work a mook. SLT isn’t a prereq.

Also I never said that you didn’t have mobility. I know nothing of your mobility just as you know nothing of my “rooting” or of my energy and sensitivity. But if I had to choose between improving on or the other I would choose mobility. And if what you call “rooting” is what I call “stability” then I do have that, although I probably wouldn’t win in chi gung contests. :slight_smile:

As for a teenager learning kung fu, we will have to agree to disagree. Since neither you nor I are grandmasters neither can really comment on who a grandmaster would spend time with. But regardless of that a true grandmaster would have quality teachers under him that would be able to teach much to someone in 5 years, even if he started training at age thirteen.

Regards,

John M. Drake

13

John M. Drake

Forgive me for my ingnorance? I was informed that Bruce Leee stopped working on the Mook Jong the last few years of his life because he felt it was best to practice on human targets for better sensitivity training. Since the Mook Jong had no real movement of the human body and all individuals are different in their reactions in regards to trapping?

Sensei Kunz

14

Ignorance? What ignorance?

Hello Sensei Kunz,

You are probably no more ignorant on the subject of what happened in the last years of Bruce Lee’s life than me. After all, I wasn’t there. :slight_smile: There are a couple of points, however, that I think are worth noting:

  1. Bruce Lee emphasized different things to different people. Partly this was because people are different and come to the table with different attributes (although we all have "two arms and two legs.) The other difference is that Bruce Lee was always experimenting. Might it be possible that one “experiment” was to see how someone’s trapping skills developed without mook jong training?

  2. Regardless of what Bruce was doing in the last 2 or 3 years of life, he had already aquired many skills from his training. Some of that training was on the mook jong. So might someone “miss” an opportunity to develop some of those skills by foregoing mook jong training?

  3. What do you do when you don’t have a live training partner?

Ok. That was 3 points instead of two. :wink:

Regards,

John M. Drake

Originally posted by Sensei Kunz
[B]Forgive me for my ingnorance? I was informed that Bruce Leee stopped working on the Mook Jong the last few years of his life because he felt it was best to practice on human targets for better sensitivity training. Since the Mook Jong had no real movement of the human body and all individuals are different in their reactions in regards to trapping?

Sensei Kunz [/B]

15

…But there are others, can anyone out there give me, or explain how they train for sensitivity?

Sure. Just develop a structure. Then when you relaxed enough and your structure supports all your movements, you will have sensitivity inside your body (becasue the force travels through your arms to your centre of body mass)..here is the best place to react because it the heaviest part..so you can have the ability to change ur structure without being affected by outside forces so much…eg ur opponet trying to disrupt you via inputing/overloading you with force.

Dont think sensitivity ends at your arms. Also, only react when you need to (ie if they can affect you enough so you have to). A strong root will enabe you to absorb much force - thus minimising the actual need for large and often un-necessary movement. (the reason u see WC people use the efficent way!)

16

He develop the base that He needed to fight against man who were much bigger and more aggressive than what he is seen back in China.
(THIS WAS DUE TO THE LACK OF HIS ABILITY NOT THE STYLE)

As I understand it, Bruce flew back to China a few times to show YIP MAN what he had done. And as I understand it (just hearsay.) YIP MAN approved of Bruce’s modifications. Anyhow he continued his own training! (and DID HIS OWN THING!)
JUST HEARSAY. COMPLETE CRAP, YIP DIDNT WANT ANYTHING TO DO WITH HIM AS HE WAS HALF GERMAN.

But if you think that it’s possible to be able to effectively use the mook without knowing the mook form then we would agree. However I would go a step further and say that it’s possible to effectively use the mook without knowing SLT or the other two WC forms either.

HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU DO TEACHES YOU WHAT YOU WANT THEN. WITHOUT CERTAIN PRICIBLES BEHIND THE MOVEMENTS THERE ARE JUST USLESS TECHNIQUES. wITHOUT THE TRAINING IN SLT AND CHUM KIU ITS LIKE STARTING A DEGREE IN SCIENCE AND NOT HAVE PASSED PRIMARY SCHOOL MATHS.

17

Come on Benny! Do you really believe that!
Too point out the problems is easy, but finding out why you have that problem is a wholly different topic.
Bruce Lee found out when he came to the United States, that he was a very small man. (135lbs and 5’9") But back in China he was average if not to say a little larger than most Chinese. (There is something to be said about size! It may not be the end all be all, BUT the Americans Bruce saw were on average a hundred pounds heavier, much more aggressive and use a completely different style of fighting then they did back in China.)
It was stated in many articles I’ve read, that when the Westerners came to China, the average seamen could handle all but the most skilled masters in hand-in-hand combat. The jab and basic the boxing skills of most Europeans combined with the added strength and size, made foreign sailors very affordable.
BUT WE ARE GETTING OFF THE TOIPC.
Sensitivity and developing skill was the original topic. Not why, or how good Bruce Lee was when he came to the states.
I’m not trying to compare the old ways and the new ways of doing things. I am simply trying to see, DIFFERENT ways of training for sensitivity. (It is true that classical wing chun has many answers. But I do not believe it has all of the answers.) We must search ourselves and others to fully understand this topic.
Traping is widely misunderstood even in the classical world of the martial art’s.
Perhaps instead of sensitivity exercisers.
We should first explore and understand different ideas on what makes traping work.
I am out of time!
Have to run! Looking for do hear from you again.
Sincerely C.A.G.

18

Rooting

What is rooting? Is it stability as was suggested earlier? If that is the case, then I believe that stability and mobility are somewhat contrary concepts. You would like to find a good balance between being stable and yet mobile. I get the impression however, that rooting is more than that.

As for sensitivity, I think that exercises, per se, would not refine your sense of touch. If you practice exercises with poor sensitivity, then you will have accomplished nothing. I think the main thing is too slow way down in everything you are doing and focus all of your attention on your sense of touch; what is it telling you to do. Sometimes we want to force a movement or a technique because we feel that is the proper response; however, sensitivity will guide you to the proper response for each situation without thought, because it is based on what is felt and not what is believed. The name of this post sums it up well…Be My Lying Eyes. They will deceive you because that visual information has to be processed through your brain first and you brain will add its own interpretation to the information based on past experience, fear, doubt, anger, hatred etcetera. Touch impulses, however, are hardwired within us to bypass direct connection to the brain and to first route to the spinal cord for immediate classification and reaction. After that impulse has been “processed” in the spinal cord without the added color and bias of the brain, the signal will finally travel to the brain for interpretation. This is how we are able to jerk our hand away so quickly when we touch a hot object. For a split second it seems like someone else is controlling our movement. That sensation should come about in your sensitivity training so that at some point you are not sure “how” or “why” you responded with a certain movement…it just “felt” natural.

Scott

19

First off. Very nice article Scott.

Benny, you have made statements and accusations that I do not believe to be factual.
I do not know where you got your information about YIP Man, not liking Bruce because of his heritage. The way you state your information sounds like it is first-hand information. And because of your age ,I do not believe that is to be true.
At the very best your information can be secondhand information. And I have serious doubts if you’re information is correct. (No matter how you got it.)
I have received information from two different sources , both students of Bruce Lee (so you see my information is secondhand.) as well as having read a number books on this topic. Nowhere have I found anything stating that YIP MAN dislike Bruce Lee.
Secondly
why put down Bruce Lee’s arts?
It wasn’t so long ago that wing chun was look down upon, because of its age (after all wing chun is at its best, around 200 years old.) wing chun is very young system compared to many martial art’s.
AND if the stories of how wing chun was created art true, then Bruce Lee was doing nothing different then what the founder of wing chun did.
[So why play the classical game? ]

In short Benny,
Please do not put down one system to build another UP. You can point out many differences, and input your opinions , BUT don’t throw mud! No one is going to win that game.
Sincerely C.A.G.

20

Half German?

Hello Benny,

You said that someone was “half German”. Who? Bruce Lee? Yip Man? Where on earth did you get that from?

With regards to the SLT and mook jong training, your “higher math” analogy is interesting, but non-applicable. Just ask yourself this question. How did the person who first came up with the SLT learn the movements? Certainly must be a way to learn/derive certain movements without doing a form. Oh, and come to thing of it, there are other ways to learn math and other subjects other than simply “by rote”. So I guess your analogy fits after all. :slight_smile:

Regards,

John M. Drake