# black tiger **URL:** \ **Category:** Southern Chinese Kung Fu\ **Created:** [December 6, 2000, 10:20am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/black-tiger/941 "2000-12-06T10:20:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2001, 9:59pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/black-tiger/941/21 "2001-03-24T21:59:25Z")
Am I missing something here. From Inquisitor’s email we get the following lineage for Paul Koh. Wong Moon Toy - Ng Wai Hong - Tak Wah Eng - Paul Koh. Are you saying Tak Wah ENg never learned the style, Paul Koh never learned the style, or simply that he hasn’t been given a piece of paper to say he is official because you choose to recognise only certain branches of the lineage. No axe to grind but what you say lacks logic. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 5:46am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/black-tiger/941/22 "2001-03-25T05:46:50Z")
No. Tak Wah Eng gave up all rights to pass down the style of Fu Jow Pai when he decided to leave the Fu Jow Pai Federation and start a new system and a new style, of which he is the “Grandmaster.” What is being contested is that if he wishes to be a grandmaster of his own system, he should not claim to teach his students Fu Jow Pai, as he left that style and now teaches what he calls “Hark Fu Moon.” He gave up the right to pass down Fu Jow Pai when he left. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 5:56am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/black-tiger/941/23 "2001-03-25T05:56:28Z")
who let the idiot out? swift i don’t care what you have to say all i said was that there are other black tiger systems out there but instead of reading my post you let your ignorence take over for the fact that you don’t like me. you know i came back to the forum on a peace tip but people like you make it hard to be peaceful also i had the prevelge of meeting the great ng wai hong and i asked him about the bief between hui and koh (who’s no longer my sifu) and he said that the actions of hui do not relate to other members of th fu jow pai organization and had he known about it he would have put a stop to it for the fact that his goal was to spread fu jow pai not turn it to sum kind of chinese triad. see swift your talking trash over nothing so get that monkey off your shoulders and relax martial arts is about having a calm spirit not spazing out every chance you get. p.s. (fyi)i am now studing xing yi and wing chun from sifu v.a. thoma ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 9:41am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/black-tiger/941/24 "2001-03-25T09:41:58Z")
black tiger You do not speak for Ng Wai Hong. You are not even his student, nor are you a member of his Federation nor of his kungfu family. Do not put words in his mouth that cannot be verified. What you speak of can be attributed to your imagination, nothing more. This is a public internet message board; anyone can come on here and claim to speak for Ng Wai Hong (or any other respected master) or even be Ng Wai Hong himself. “I was lucky enough to meet black tiger at Central Park and he told me that he’s actually a student of Bruce Lee, who is still alive, and that he just likes to stir up trouble for the ‘stupid traditionalists’ and laugh at them while they yell at each other.” I rest my case. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 9:55am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/black-tiger/941/25 "2001-03-25T09:55:14Z")
Did you have to choose such a long name? ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 12:37pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/black-tiger/941/26 "2001-03-25T12:37:08Z")
Well, sorry I misinterpreted the magazine articles and website info. No need to get all testy about it there guys, a simple note would have sufficed. Anyway, I’m sorry that you feel a need to get all militant and I certainly didn’t intend to stir up any bad feelings. You guys popped way to fast. Once again, I am not a student of fu jow and never claimed to be. Frankly the politics are to much for me. What I wrote was an interpretation of what I’ve read. I will check again of course. anyway, peace. Kung Lek ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 3:28pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/black-tiger/941/27 "2001-03-25T15:28:08Z")
Kung Lek Hopefully you understand where SwiftKill is coming from. If someone were to post misinformation as to your style or your sifu’s style, I would be surprised if you were not quick to jump on such falsehood and give out the correct information (as you know it, of course). It may not have been done with bad intentions, but it can be a problem when bad information is spread around. I was simply trying to “correct the record,” as it may be. I hope I did not come off as offensive or meaning you any ill will. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2001, 3:36am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/black-tiger/941/28 "2001-03-30T03:36:43Z")
this is why people laugh at the cma’s not because of the skill but as kung lek put it it’s the politics no i’m not wai hong pupil nor do i care to be i enjoy training in xing yi to much to think about going back to the hell that external martial arts has become with all the bitching and have the time it’s the students who do the bitching so as to swift kill or anyone for that matter i have one thing to say bitching is not gonna make you a better fighter just a bigger sh\*t talker so i guess your a sifu of the art of talking(like we say in new york) cocka or crap you guys really need to stop what your doing your making your styles look bad ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2001, 5:00am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/black-tiger/941/29 "2001-03-30T05:00:31Z")
Swiftkill, if you are a fu jow pai practitioner, then it is your error in making light of Hark Fu Moon. Please go through the link below to the Waisingtigerclaw kung fu website where it explains the entire history of “fu jow pai”. this is waising tiger claw school which is an official fu jow pai school that has ng wai hong and his teacher clearly defined in the lineage and which in fact states clearly that fu jow pai is a modern day interpretation/version of Hark Fu Moon. Once again, i reitereate, Hark Fu Moon IS a well known black tiger system that predates Fu Jow Pai. Hark Fu Moon (Hak Fu Mun) is the Sil Lum Black Tiger spoken of in the article. Black tiger systems exist in many village styles throughout southern china. The tiger/Black Tiger systems of the shaolin temple were fairly widely dissemenated and to claim that there is only 1 is folly and just plain untrue. There may be only 1 Fu Jow Pai and that is fine, Fu Jow is a very effective style based on pyure sil lum tiger, but so are many other black tiger systems. politics and ill feelings towards an individual does not atke away from their years of training, so nuff said about any other systems. If you maintain your arrogant and ignorant stance it is those who do so that will continue to look foolish in the eyes of great Kung fu practitioners everywhere. this does not take away from either system. I do not feel that I have misinterpreted much afterall except that it was not “created” by wai hong but rather it came from his teacher who learned it from his teacher who learned “HARK FU MOON” from the monk at the Hoy Hong Temple 🙂 anyway, I think that they are all effective fighting systems and I believe it is those UNDER Ng Wai Hong who are trouble makers and who make these seemingly brash and apparently arrogant posturings about who’s who and what not. so, peace, and before you jump the gun on me or anyone else, get your own stories straight! [http://www.waisingtigerclaw.com/history\_page/history.htm](http://www.waisingtigerclaw.com/history_page/history.htm) Kung Lek [This message was edited by Kung Lek on 03-30-01 at 12:11 PM.] [This message was edited by Kung Lek on 03-30-01 at 12:13 PM.] ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2001, 8:59am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/black-tiger/941/30 "2001-03-30T08:59:20Z")
Clarifications. Fu Jow Pai is derived from the style called Hark Fu Moon (but, while similar, they are no longer the same thing). The style of Hark Fu Moon that Tak Wah Eng claims to teach is not the same Hark Fu Moon taught by masters whose lineage do not come from Ng Wai Hong, Wong Moon Toy, or Wong Bil Hong (as Tak Wah Eng does). Those who teach Hark Fu Moon as it passed down from generation to generation (and called Hark Fu Moon the entire time) are separate and distinct from Fu Jow Pai, and are legitimate “tiger” stylists in their own right. LOL I hope that just made sense… Wong Bil Hung was taught Hark Fu Moon by a monk from the Hoy Hung Temple. Upon the death of said monk, Wong Bil Hung renamed the style Fu Jow Pai out of respect for his deceased master. It is not presumptuous to infer that Wong Bil Hung also made his own modifications to Hark Fu Moon/Fu Jow Pai due to his knowledge of other styles at the time. Wong Bil Hung passed down the style of Fu Jow Pai to his nephew, Wong Moon Toy. At this point, the style had become Fu Jow Pai, and while related to/descended from Hark Fu Moon, was a separate and distinct style in its own right. It is curious to note that Wong Moon Toy also had prior knowledge of other kungfu styles before learning Fu Jow Pai. Again, changes were no doubt made to the style (however small) due to this. Wong Moon Toy passed down Fu Jow Pai to Paul Eng and Ng Wai Hong (who is now the grandmaster). ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2001, 2:25pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/black-tiger/941/31 "2001-03-30T14:25:05Z")
Sadly misguided fools. First of all, I want to thank Inquisitor for correcting and clarifing (excuse spelling if it is wrong) Kung Lek’s misunderstanding of Fu-Jow Pai’s history. As for you black tiger, (I will still call you black tiger because your new user name is not fooling me) don’t become angry because I state the truth and prove you wrong. I am not responsible nor do I have control of your childish and ignorance ways; so don’t try to reverse the situation by saying that I am bitching because stating the facts or proving you wrong is not bitching. I am merely correcting and preventing the bullsh\*t that you are trying to spread around in this forum about Fu-Jow Pai for that matter so that other people who are not familar with Fu-Jow won’t start to believe your crap and start to think as stupid as you. Also I do not hate you. Hate does not exist in my vocabulary; I will not let that emotion consume me. You must have a complex problem if you think that I hate you because I never said that I hate you. And for you Kung Lek, Inquisitor already have said it for me. All I ask of you is to read any material throughly and carefully with an empty and opened mind. In doing this you will see that the answers are already there in front of your nose and nowhere else. “Read with the eyes closed, and the Mind open.” If you guys want to chat sometime, go to the KungFuOnline chat room. I always check to see if anybody is there on Tuesdays, Wednesday, Thursday, Fridays, and Saturdays around 9pm to 11pm. If I don’t see anybody I log off and go back every 15min to see if anybody is on. However, appear in your own true username that you use on the forum; don’t be a whimp and show up with a different name. SwiftKill ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2001, 1:47am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/black-tiger/941/32 "2001-03-31T01:47:45Z")
hmm they never learn swift i don’t get angry and you didn’t prove me wrong all i said was there is more then one style of black tiger and you came out with all this non accitial stuff so don’t get you panies in a bunch and if you don’t by the name good it just tell’s me i made the write choice why don’t you look at my first post you’ll see that i wasen’t spreading anything. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2001, 1:49am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/black-tiger/941/33 "2001-03-31T01:49:50Z")
oh and another thing i love writing up post cause i can always be sure that swiftkill will reply ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2001, 4:37pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/black-tiger/941/34 "2001-03-31T16:37:19Z")
Kung Lek Just so you know, I am not picking sides on this whole matter. I am just trying to make sure that all the information put out by the crossfire between SwiftKill and black tiger is clarified and is not _mis_information. I hope you understand. =) ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2001, 4:11am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/black-tiger/941/35 "2001-04-26T04:11:25Z")
please lord! If this forum went by ratings, Swiftkill would be a tremendous ASSet. But since, I believe, the main purpose of this forum is to inquire on, and share knowledge of kung fu…why the F\*CK is SWIFTKILL allowed to post here??? He is the most arrogant, rude, undisciplined, biased person on this forum. Although he does posess knowledge on certain subjects, he uses that knowledge to insult, degrade and condescend to everyone he encounters. Yes, I DID study with Paul Koh for 2 years. I had certain, irrelevant reasons for leaving, but I will say this in his defense: he makes NO mention what-so-ever about Fu Jow Pai. Nor does he claim any of the techniques he teaches are Fu Jow Pai oriented. Yes, he HAS learned Wai Hong Eng’s system through Wai Hong’s nephew Tak Wah Eng, but he makes no reference to that (Fu Jow Pai). He’s doing everything by the book. Paul Koh learned from Tak Wah (among others) and Tak Wah learned from Wai Hong…but if FJP wants no mention to be made of that, they got what they asked for. So what in god’s name are you people talking about? I believe that is all FJP is asking, that he doesn’t claim to be associated with them. And what of Tak Wah’s other students that are now Sifus? Why no mention of them. And ALL of you people who constantly bash him KNOW where his school is. I think you should show up there and wait for him to exit the school one night (b/c he won’t buzz you up) and start throwing punches at him. That would be very amusing. Because regardless of what is said on or off this forum, the man has been studying for 25 yrs+ and he HAS kung fu. Or maybe you guys can just keep “emailing” him challenges, eh?! ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2001, 12:48pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/black-tiger/941/36 "2001-04-29T12:48:20Z")
I smell another Troll on this forum. NyHc NyHc, You must be a relative of ‘blacktiger’ a.k.a ‘peacemaker’. The both of you need to grow up. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2001, 11:24pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/black-tiger/941/37 "2001-04-29T23:24:54Z")
The last thing I want to start is any kind of correspondence with you… I have negative things to say about Bo Law, but I also have positive things to say. The negative things are for me to know and me to know alone. If I were 100% happy with the school, I would never have left. So I’m not sticking up for anyone. I’m just stating that the man’s ability should not be questioned. And I have no idea who blacktiger is. Maybe if I saw his face. We’ll end it there. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2001, 3:14pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/black-tiger/941/38 "2001-05-01T15:14:10Z")
Talk, Talk, Talk NyHc, If you didn’t want any correspondence with me then you should have not talk sh_t about me. If you believe the main purpose of this forum is to inquire and share knowledge of kung fu, then fine; that’s ok. However, it should be the truth and right info, not some false bullsh_t that someone makes up or ASSumes to believe, especially when that person does not know the truth or does not have the right info. Someone posting the wrong info can lead to more incorrect info. And to give you one good example, is the wrong info that you just recently posted. That info that I am talking about is you saying, “Yes, he HAS learned Wai Hong Eng’s system through Wai Hong’s nephew Tak Wah Eng,” Tak Wah Eng is not Wai Hong’s nephew. Because of one assh\*le p os ting on this forum that Tak is Wai Hong’s nephew, now others including yourself now believes that Tak is Wai Hong’s nephew and this is the type of incorrect info that I am talking about. Also, Paul HAS NOT LEARNED Wai Hong’s system; infact, he has not even come close to one 1/8 of the system. As I read your post, it is clear that you know nothing of the s itu ation so stop talking sh_t, especially sh_t you don’t know about. You are just confusing people with your worthless, incorrect input. Also, so what you studied with Paul Koh for 2 years; so what. I guess that make you feel as an expert in the FJP and Pa ul Koh situation; enough to make a comment; WRONG! I am not a rude person but if you are rude to me then I will be rude to you. However, you are different, you are rude, ignorant, and stupid. Don’t be a little troll hanging around under the bridge. Swif tKill?? [This message was edited by SwiftKill on 05-01-01 at 11:21 PM.] ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2001, 1:06am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/black-tiger/941/39 "2001-05-02T01:06:22Z")
thus, a correspondence… You know what? you’re absolutely right- on all counts. The only reason I mentioned that I studied with him for (a short time, I know) 2 years was to say that I can vouch for his character and his ability. But, when it all comes down to it, I CAN’T speak for Paul Koh, Tak Wah, Wai Hong, Hui Cambrelen. I’m just a little curious as to what makes you able to do so. Actually, I’m not curious at all because I really don’t care. And don’t throw that troll term around so much. I think if someone sat down and read the majority of your posts, that “troll finger” would be pointed in your direction. “Swiftkill” I just want you to know that that’s a very gracious, humble name to choose. That says a great deal about your character. :rolleyes: You can respond to this if you so choose. However, this is my last post in this thread. Good luck in your training, little man. Let me know when you finally learn the lost art form of TACT. I’m sorry for wasting everyone’s time who read this nonsense. [This message was edited by NyHc on 05-02-01 at 09:13 AM.] ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2001, 2:35pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/black-tiger/941/40 "2001-05-02T14:35:55Z")
Correspondence #2 NyHc, ``` If you believe that 2 years is enough to know ones character and ability, then it is obviously clear that you haven't experienced or seen the reality of life yet. You only know him as a teacher(ha!) within 2 years but not as person and that is because he is always portraying an act and not being his true self with his students. Example: When paul koh use to come to the Fu-Jow Pai celebrations with his old teacher Frank Yee, he spoke normally with us as any other english speaking person would. But when I visited his school one time, I noticed that he was faking a chinese accent as if he spoke chinese all his life. What a load of crap he is; now what kind of person do you think he is if he has to fake an accent? (hint: a tremendous bullsh*t artist) Also, if there is something that you don't want to know about, then don't ask. What's that matter, unsure or afraid of the questions you ask. As for someone pointing me out as a troll, I doubt it very much. But if they did, then fine, I don't care. I know who I really am and don't need someone to tell me otherwise; however, I am sure that those who do consider me as one will still read any of my posting in this forum and that is because, whether or not they will admit it, they respect me for defending and standing up for the Kung-Fu system and the people in it that I am studying. ``` Another thing. I am not throwing the troll term at you, I am telling you that you are a troll; especially the way you came out in your postings. I am not afraid to tell people in there face what I think of them. It is people who likes to point and label a person that are afraid. You see when someone points at a person and labels them, it is always done from a distance because they are chicken sh\*t to tell them in their face. However, they should realize that when you point a finger at someone, you have 3 fingers pointing back at you. Think about it. As for my screen name ‘SwiftKill’, it was given to me. I didn’t make it up. However, I would like to know what you think it says about my character? Now I wish all trolls were like you in a sense that if they were to keep their word about no longer posting messages in this thread, then this Kung-Fu forum would be a whole lot better. But, then again, that is not a trolls nature. SwiftKill [Previous page](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/black-tiger/941.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/black-tiger/941.md?page=3)