# "Average" MMA **URL:** \ **Category:** Wing Chun\ **Created:** [October 9, 2007, 7:20pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/average-mma/41358 "2007-10-09T19:20:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Tom\_Kagan](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/tom_kagan/32/98_2.png) [@Tom\_Kagan](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Tom_Kagan)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 4:35pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/average-mma/41358/41 "2007-10-12T16:35:45Z")
[QUOTE=southernkf;804881]In any case, no it was the bullshido video. But really it doesn’t matter what video. My point was how we can develop better skills and learn out art and what others have experienced. [/QUOTE] This video? [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtl1myuoDH0](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtl1myuoDH0) ---
**Author:** ![t\_niehoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d6d6ee/32.png) [@t\_niehoff](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/t_niehoff)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 4:39pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/average-mma/41358/42 "2007-10-12T16:39:18Z")
[QUOTE=southernkf;805007]Hi Terence, I understand what your saying. You have been saying that for a while. I am not interesting in debating the “just do it” mentality. What I am asking is what did those that did it get from it? I have been sparring (not currently with MMA people) and I have found all kinds of interesting things from my experience. So far most of it has validated what I learned. [/QUOTE] The problem with “sparring” is that just about everyone in martial arts spars. And they all think they are doing fairly well. But most of them still don’t get very good – which is easily seen when they spar with someone that is good. Sparring in TMAs is most often done with other poor fighters, doing similar crappy things, not acting realistically, etc. It is more a form of playfighting. And all it does is reinforce the fantasy. The most important feature is the quality of the sparring – the level of intensity, the level of the opponents, the realistic nature, etc. This is why I suggest a good MMA gym, MT school, boxing gym, etc., places where fighters, good fighters, really train. I think that if your sparring has validated what you have learned in WCK, then you have not been sparring with good people or sparring realistically. I say that not to \*\*\*\* you off or belittle you but because WCK application does not correspond to the tradtional WCK training. If you don’t believe me, go see for yourself – go visit some place where good (proven) fighters spar and mix it up at 100%, and see if you can do those things you train to do as you have trained to do them. You won’t. No one traditionally trained can. This is not a WCK sucks diatribe. I’ve never said WCK sucks. The traditional mindset and training method of TMAs suck. Yes, those are a part of WCK. But we can discard them from our WCK. > So, I’ll ask you, what has your experience been when training with MMA people? Did it help you understand wing chun any better? Did you find wing chun doesn’t work, it works when modified, always works, or something different? I am not so much interested in hearing how bad wing chun sucks. We get that view enough. I am interested in hearing if any one had successful interactions. Not necessarily winning and dominating, but they were able to work out and identify fixable problems in technique, form, implementation, strategy, etc. What I’ve found is that fighting will “look” (feel, etc.) like MMA/NHB regardless of your style or art when you are really hard-pressed (by the intensity and/or skill of the opponent). And that’s what you have to prepare for. Your WCK tools need to fit and work in that chaotic, violent mess. Your body/mind has to be prepared and conditioned for that chaotic, violent mess. The traditional training of WCK, the unreaslistic exercises, won’t prepare you for that. All it does is make the trainee familiar with the tools/skills of WCK. They don’t pertain to genuine application – how you can really use those tools/skills in fighting. In fact, the range, facing, energy, timing, etc. of all the drills not anything like genuine application. If you are interested, you might visit Alan Orr’s website and purchase his WCK for NHB videos – that would be a good start and giveyou some idea of what I am talking about. ---
**Author:** ![sihing](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/sihing/32/521_2.png) [@sihing](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/sihing)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 5:11pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/average-mma/41358/43 "2007-10-12T17:11:19Z")
[QUOTE=t\_niehoff;805174]The problem with “sparring” is that just about everyone in martial arts spars. And they all think they are doing fairly well. But most of them still don’t get very good – which is easily seen when they spar with someone that is good. Sparring in TMAs is most often done with other poor fighters, doing similar crappy things, not acting realistically, etc. It is more a form of playfighting. And all it does is reinforce the fantasy. The most important feature is the quality of the sparring – the level of intensity, the level of the opponents, the realistic nature, etc. This is why I suggest a good MMA gym, MT school, boxing gym, etc., places where fighters, good fighters, really train. I think that if your sparring has validated what you have learned in WCK, then you have not been sparring with good people or sparring realistically. I say that not to \*\*\*\* you off or belittle you but because WCK application does not correspond to the tradtional WCK training. If you don’t believe me, go see for yourself – go visit some place where good (proven) fighters spar and mix it up at 100%, and see if you can do those things you train to do as you have trained to do them. You won’t. No one traditionally trained can. This is not a WCK sucks diatribe. I’ve never said WCK sucks. The traditional mindset and training method of TMAs suck. Yes, those are a part of WCK. But we can discard them from our WCK. What I’ve found is that fighting will “look” (feel, etc.) like MMA/NHB regardless of your style or art when you are really hard-pressed (by the intensity and/or skill of the opponent). And that’s what you have to prepare for. Your WCK tools need to fit and work in that chaotic, violent mess. Your body/mind has to be prepared and conditioned for that chaotic, violent mess. The traditional training of WCK, the unreaslistic exercises, won’t prepare you for that. All it does is make the trainee familiar with the tools/skills of WCK. They don’t pertain to genuine application – how you can really use those tools/skills in fighting. In fact, the range, facing, energy, timing, etc. of all the drills not anything like genuine application. If you are interested, you might visit Alan Orr’s website and purchase his WCK for NHB videos – that would be a good start and giveyou some idea of what I am talking about.[/QUOTE] From Previous Liddel post: "Its a catch 22 with this guy. A more modern approach is need. T Im aware and changing the method while keeping the style. US No the style doesnt work. T Ive found it does for me. US It doesnt work against high level people. T Im not training for high level, but it still works from there down. US Your sparring low level people. T They have good skills. US If it works they must be 5hit ! T It works cause i have added more modern tarining methods. US Rinse repeat… No the style doesnt work. Ive found it does for me. It doesnt work against high level people. Im not training for high level, but it still works from there down. Your sparring low level people. They have good skills. If it works they must be 5hit ! It works cause i have added more modern tarining methods." Thx for the laugh T :):):)🙂 James ---
**Author:** ![southernkf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c57346/32.png) [@southernkf](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/southernkf)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 5:40pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/average-mma/41358/44 "2007-10-12T17:40:23Z")
> The problem with “sparring” is that just about everyone in martial arts spars. And they all think they are doing fairly well. But most of them still don’t get very good – which is easily seen when they spar with someone that is good. Sparring in TMAs is most often done with other poor fighters, doing similar crappy things, not acting realistically, etc. It is more a form of playfighting. And all it does is reinforce the fantasy. The most important feature is the quality of the sparring … I can’t help the fact people don’t spar correctly. There is different levels of sparring and you should be sparring at a level that challenges you, with different people rather than the same ones who react in similar ways. I agree with what you say, but I don’t think it is relevant to the topic. Meaning I can’t help it if they aren’t doing things the right way. Quality is indeed the important factor. My sparring is not where I want it, but it is good for where I am at. Once I get a handle on it I’ll ratchet it up. Hopefully I’ll find like minded people and get a larger group to work with. Hopefull it will include MMA as well as others. > I think that if your sparring has validated what you have learned in WCK, then you have not been sparring with good people or sparring realistically. I say that not to \*\*\*\* you off or belittle you but because WCK application does not correspond to the tradtional WCK training. If you don’t believe me, go see for yourself – go visit some place where good (proven) fighters spar and mix it up at 100%, and see if you can do those things you train to do as you have trained to do them. You won’t. No one traditionally trained can. I don’t take offense at what your saying and it doesn’t \*\*\*\* me off. But I do think it is a bit naive. You feel that wing chun training cannot train you to be a good fighter. I disagree and think there are great skills there. I am not interested in a debate of the utlitmate martial arts. Even if your correct about it not holding up to MMA people, it still holds up in general. But just for the record, the clip between Dale and Rashun did not show MMA domination as you tend to suggest. But to be fair the clips was just a fraction of the whole exchange. Here is my thought on this topic. Prior to the Gracies, JiuJitsu was not condisdered to be a dominate art. Many people laughed and joked about it. My first wing chun school shared space with JuiJitsu people and our teacher and senior students did not have difficulty holding their own against them. Then came the Gracies (atleast with public noterity). They worked on a classical system and trained very effectivly with it. They modernized it no doubt, but the techniques Royce in particular used are classical techniques are they not? Working with a system in a unrealistic environment is just a false sense of security. Gracie’s worked with their system and learned where it worked. They don’t seem to me to be denying the Classical JiuJitsu. I havn’t really studied much on them, but what little I have shows them training in basic jiu jitsu skills. Not sure why Wing Chun is any different. Wing Chun done the way it is designed to work is valid. I agree that most people don’t seem able to pull it off. But that is their problem. My goal is to figure out how it works, and that includes trying it out in class with mutual friends as well in sparring sessions and hopefull some of the open exchanges that occur hear and their with MMA type people. > This is not a WCK sucks diatribe. I’ve never said WCK sucks. The traditional mindset and training method of TMAs suck. Yes, those are a part of WCK. But we can discard them from our WCK. OK, I take everything back. LOL. Cool, wing chun doesn’t suck. Then with that out of the way I partially agree. I think Uke syndrom runs rampant in most all schools. Some more than others, and some or more honest about it. I think the tradional approach, atleast what I have been exposed to, is a valid approach for teaching the skill portion. You start from a point of no skill and progress in much the same way a Concert Violinist would. You spend years refining your skills prior to playing in the big concert. Prior to that your in recitals that really don’t mean much. MMA, and your view is more akin to a blues mucsican that may or may not have technical talent, but plays befors crowds as soon as possible. There different approaches. I think with the tradional approach you do have to go outside the norm and test yourself. And this actually is part of many schools. Yip Man advise people to go test it out, as we often cite and hear. Choy Li Fut schools did the same as did Lam Sai Wing and Lam Jo’s Schools. Many others did too. Fighting has been part of traditional schools for a long time. But I feel today martial arts has become a suburbs sport where people arn’t interested in fighting. Or atleast the ratio of people interested in fighting is much smaller than those interested in just learning. So you begin to have the phoenomenon you have been banging your drum about for so long. Get out there and test it against good quality people. And if you fail, analyze WHY you failed and see if it was because the arts just sucks or because you didn’t utilize the art in the right way? I suspect it often will be the later. But what do I know? I am still figuring it out. LOL > What I’ve found is that fighting will “look” (feel, etc.) like MMA/NHB regardless of your style or art when you are really hard-pressed (by the intensity and/or skill of the opponent). And that’s what you have to prepare for. Your WCK tools need to fit and work in that chaotic, violent mess. Your body/mind has to be prepared and conditioned for that chaotic, violent mess. The traditional training of WCK, the unreaslistic exercises, won’t prepare you for that. All it does is make the trainee familiar with the tools/skills of WCK. They don’t pertain to genuine application – how you can really use those tools/skills in fighting. In fact, the range, facing, energy, timing, etc. of all the drills not anything like genuine application. Finally, some one addressing the hear of the topic. THis is the stuff I wanted. Yeah, that “eye of the tiger” to use a horid phrase of a Rocky movie. Fighting is as much a mind set as it is a skill set. You have to have the heart and drive of a fighter. How many times have you seen a technically good fighter quit in a ring because he lost his desire to fight? It happens. A good punch to the face can sap that out of you. The school itself doesn’t teach you that. Some people are born with it (or into it). Others never get it. But I disagree that a school doesn’t focus on it. In fact I have heard several people focus on it. Gary Lam has talked about this very thing when discussing the Knives. My line talks at great length about it, especially in regards to Biu Jee. But it permeates the art. We arn’t supposed to become slackjawed while chi sauing or looking off to the side. THere is an intensity in what we do. You have to develop that skill. This may only be a portion of what your talking about, but the fighters of wing chun do have it and do address it. This is why I look at much that you have said and I shake my head. Look for those that have the skills. Don’t paint us all with the same brush based on Youtube clips and a few bad wing chun showings. As for Alan Orr, I saw a couple clips, I think on [wingchunfightclub.com](http://wingchunfightclub.com) or something. I wasn’t as impressed with what I saw, meaning I wanted to see other stuff. But it seemed good quality stufff for the ring. It is hard to critique it now as I didn’t really study it. But I am interested in seeing more from him as well as others. I would love to see more of Rick Spain, who I think has some pretty good skills. I am interested in some of the Gary Lam stuff, though I am not sure if they spar and mix it up with MMA, but I like some of the stuff they do and ideas. All though I am not a fighter by heart, I hope to be able to mix it up and prove to myself if all this time and effort is worth it. Maybe you and others are right in that it just doesn’t work. I just have a hard time buying that. LOL. But in any case, I’ll look into Orr’s stuff. Despite what others say, I still enjoy talking with you cause you do focus on reality and can think critically about various topics. Not saying your always right, but that you don’t drink the coolaid. LOL ---
**Author:** ![Knifefighter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@Knifefighter](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Knifefighter)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 5:58pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/average-mma/41358/45 "2007-10-12T17:58:41Z")
[QUOTE=southernkf;805196]Prior to the Gracies, JiuJitsu was not condisdered to be a dominate art. Many people laughed and joked about it. My first wing chun school shared space with JuiJitsu people and our teacher and senior students did not have difficulty holding their own against them. Then came the Gracies (atleast with public noterity). They worked on a classical system and trained very effectivly with it. They modernized it no doubt, but the techniques Royce in particular used are classical techniques are they not? Working with a system in a unrealistic environment is just a false sense of security. Gracie’s worked with their system and learned where it worked. They don’t seem to me to be denying the Classical JiuJitsu.[/QUOTE] BJJ and claissical classical jujutsuhave no affiliation, other than the fact that Kano modified jujutsu into judo which was modified into BJJ by the Brazilians. BJJ and classical jujutsu might be very distant cousins, but BJJ is no more classical JJ than Sambo is. As a matter of fact Sambo and BJJ are much closer than BJJ and JJ, even though they were developed separately. ---
**Author:** ![sanjuro\_ronin](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/sanjuro_ronin/32/793_2.png) [@sanjuro\_ronin](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/sanjuro_ronin)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 6:07pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/average-mma/41358/46 "2007-10-12T18:07:38Z")
> Finally, some one addressing the hear of the topic. THis is the stuff I wanted. Yeah, that “eye of the tiger” to use a horid phrase of a Rocky movie. Fighting is as much a mind set as it is a skill set. You have to have the heart and drive I addressed this in my very first post, MMA fighters are no different than other fighters ( technique aside), the fighter mindset is in all fighters, regardless of discipline. And the only way to understand it and deal with is to fight them, period. ---
**Author:** ![southernkf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c57346/32.png) [@southernkf](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/southernkf)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 7:13pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/average-mma/41358/47 "2007-10-12T19:13:19Z")
Ohh, sorry. I must have misinterpreted what you were saying. ---
**Author:** ![sanjuro\_ronin](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/sanjuro_ronin/32/793_2.png) [@sanjuro\_ronin](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/sanjuro_ronin)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 7:19pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/average-mma/41358/48 "2007-10-12T19:19:17Z")
[QUOTE=southernkf;805251]Ohh, sorry. I must have misinterpreted what you were saying.[/QUOTE] No worries. Trying to focus on dealing with a fighters technique is a “first level” or “superficial” stage, where some end up “fighting the opponents fight”. You wanna fight the intent, the mindset if you will. To understand what it means to fight a MMA, average or otherwise, one must simply fight them. Yes, technique and strategy are important, but they will vary from figher to fighter, sometimes to a huge degree as you go from combat art to combat art, but the basic mindset remains to be quite the same. [Previous page](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/average-mma/41358.md?page=2)