ATTN: Sandman2 and Sihing 73

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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I was curious if you two fine moderators are familiar with the chi kung methods of Breathing in thru the nose and exhaling out the mouth? This also includes holding the tongue to the roof of the mouth with the tip of the tongue just touching the back of the teeth and the sphincter held tightly closed. I believe this is beneficial excercise, what are your opinions?

P.S. This is a fine chance for you to share some of your expertise Sandman as I noticed as I read thru the 80 or so posts youv’e made there isn’t much you have shared (sorta like me), unlike the well liked and respected Sihing 73.:slight_smile:

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Short answer

Hello,

I have been experiencing problems with my home PC so until I replace the motherboard I will be spending most of my time viewing rather than replying.

However in relation to this question I believe that the connecting of the tongue to the roof of the mouth closes what some people may refer to as the microsmic orbit. In essence the idea is to complete the circuit of the chi channels kind of like turning on the faucet of a hose. If there are kinks in the hose then there can be problems. By completing the circuit one can more easily identify any blockages and work to relieve them. Of course, I am not a Chi Kung master of any sort :smiley:

The idea of breathing in through the nose and out through the mouth is one method. Another to is to breath in one nostril and out of the other. I am sure you are aware of the variations on breathing as well.

In the first section of the SNT one can incorporate the type of breathing exercise you mention. By coordinating your slow Taun/Fook/Wu with controlled, deep abdominal breathing one can begin to develope chi and or power. When I say develope Chi I do not mean increase it. All of us are born with the same amount of Chi it is just ones exposure and understanding which allow one to take advantage of the benefits.

FWIW I practice Jam Jong which is a series of standing postures with various breathing patterns. Pretty basic stuff really. :wink:

This is it for now feel free to pick apart my words and correct me where I err. As to the question of whether this is of benefit or not I would say that it is one of several methods. IMHO it is, or can be, very beneficial.

Peace,

Dave

BTW: Sunkuen while I can appreciate your feelings I think it is a bit unfair to be too critical of Sandman. He has, as far as I know, a very busy schedule between work and training and family. When he chooses to share something it is of doubtless value, imo. As to me being well liked and respected I hope this is true but I assure you there are many both here and elsewhere with greater knowledge and better skill than I, though I do have a winning personality :smiley:

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hey dave

I have no intention of picking apart your answer and correcting you.:slight_smile:
P.S. It seems sandman2 has all kinds of time on his hands.

4

Which Sphincter, Sunkuen?

Excessive pressure on the cardiac sphincter could lead to acid reflux and heartburn, while strain on the pyloric sphincter will stem the flow of all-important chyme to the small intestine. Both of these situations will have an egregious impact on your chi.

maybe sandman and shihing can shed some light where it don’t normally shine…

5

Breathing and slt/Dave’s post

I debated as to whether to send this post. The plusses for sending outweighed the rest. Dave’s discussion on breathing,
chi kung and slt sounds confused at best and wrong otherwise…
and can confuse newbies. Chi kung is a complicated subject.
In doing the slt if the structure(alignment) is correct, breathing will occur naturally.

6

Please inform us

Hi Joy,

As I stated I am no type of Chi Gung Master nor do I claim to be. I also did not go into any great amount of detail in my post. Perhaps I am confused and not as well versed in Chi Kung as some. In this case I would welcome an informative post which addresses the question and some methods which would be of benefit to others. I am hoping that you are in a position to offer such edification.

I will not debate whether I am wrong or not without knowing what I am wrong about. In other words while you may be 100% correct your post did nothing to aid or lessen the confusion of any “newbies” or others out there. I would ask that you provide some useful information.

As to the breathing in the SNT, as you are aware, my first Wing Chun Sifu was of the Augustine Fong line, though perhaps not a “certified” instructor. But then again this is going back almost 20 years. In any event while performing the first section of the SNT we were taught to connect the tongue to the roof of the mouth and breath in through the nose deeply using the abdomen and then out through either the mouth of nose depending on preference. While doing this we would perform the Taun/Wu/Fook portion of the form very slowly. We did not try to match breaths with the movements per se although we seemed to end up with about 5-6 breaths, again done slowly, to each of the three hand movements. Total time to complete this section ran into about 15 minutes or so.

As to my comment on breathing in through one nostral and out through the other; this is a technique which is taught in several systems to “energize” the body. One will also find that there are cultures which incorporate breathing with their walking exercises. Some of these incorporate a kind of sniffing or blowing pattern in the exercises.

Again, while I may be uniformed and confused in many things it does us little good to say so without showing where that confusion lies. In addition, if one has information to share which will help others then it does little good to keep it to oneself. So, I ask you once again to provide some specific information which will be of benefit to both myself and others.

Peace,

Dave

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Dave-

Chi gung( by any name) is a very complex subject with many different perspectives and opinions and shows the same ranges
of competence, fads and outright charlatanship that esoteric but deep subjects display. List chats and various forms of one upmanship and trolling tend to trivialize complex subjects. The disciplining and proper circulation of chi is embedded in many Chinese and Indian arts. It takes an appropriate master to show
where, when and how the appropriate chi/prana connection is there in an art. Even with pretty good exposure to several(plural) Chinese and Indian chigung teachers I wouldnt be lecturing to beginners in a wing chun net list on chi gung. Easy misinterpretations can occur. For elmentary intros/ in reading one can begin by looking at chi gung/pranayama works by such people as Yang Jwing-Ming, Iyengar and others. The applications to specific martial arts can vary depending on the structural requirements of the art. In wing chun it is all simplified— the slt when properly done gives you the proper foundation for martial purposes. For health purposes other supplementary training can depend on the competency of the teacher. In slt for beginners— do NOT worry about putting your tongue on the roof etc. Too many struggling ideas can goof up foundation building. One idea at a time is good enough.
In the first section just put your mind to the elbow- you never outgrow it. The natural breathing and adjustments are built into the form when properly done. When you roll your hands forward
to the center- you are closing— a natural diaphramatic exhalation
and then when you kwan sao and bring your fists in— it is a natural opening and inhalation. Then you sink into the stance and you also sink your chi… and it flows during the form. At the end of the form- you rise and breathe in (nose)and then put your hands down and exhale through your mouth in the end.. I will leave the sphincters alone for right now.Stick to one idea at a time.:slight_smile:

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Thanks for the clarification

Hi Joy,

Thank you for the clarification regarding your post. You are correct that Chi Gung, like most things, is something better explored in person under the guidance of a competent instructor. Your point about focusing on one thing a time is a good thing but there are many seperate points adn details involved in even the posing of the stance. The sinking of the knees, placement of the feet, position of the pelvis etc. I still feel that one can incorporate the breathing exercises in conjunction with the SNT. The double Taun Sau/Gaun Sau in the beginning of the form can also be done in coordination with specific patterns of breathing.

There are many different things to consider as a child breathes most efficiently yet as we grow older we seem to lose this “natural” ability. Consider the idea of reverse breathing which is done through the abdomin rather than the idea of expanding the chest by breathing deeply.

If one can perform the SNT or any other form more effectively by adding an additional element such as breathing then why would this be detrimental? While Wing Chun is a “simple” system sometimes you need to expand beyond the simple and add some more advanced elements. By including breathing patterns which are beneficial to both health and application one may achieve far more benefit then by simply sticking to what is easy and or simple.

In the Jam Jong which I practice the breathing is geared towards being natural. I think that one of the things which makes Chi Gung effective, irregardless of the breathing method per se, is the mental focus which one trains and develops.

While I can appreciate your point about keeping SNT simple I still feel that one can incorporate different breath patterns in conjunction with various movements to great benefit. Much like one would exhale while pressing in weight lifting or when pushing something. Conversely one may wish to inhale when pulling something. Of course this is a very simplified explanation and example. The idea of keeping the tongue on the roof of the mouth and breathing deeply in through the nose should not be too complicated for most people to grasp.

The original question was whether there was any benefit to the breathing method posed. I still say yes there is. Whether this is necessary for Wing Chun or not is another question entirely. As I am sure you are aware there are lineages of Wing Chun which incorporate Chi Gung directly into the curriculum. The question I would pose then is: By not teaching or training Chi Gung or breath control do we lose a portion of the effectiveness of the Wing Chun system?

Peace,

Dave

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Dave’s final statement

The question I would pose then is: By not teaching or training Chi Gung or breath control do we lose a portion of the effectiveness of the Wing Chun system?

Peace,

Dave-----------------

Dave, I dont think that you sufficiently understood my post. All in good time.
Crawl, walk, run. The foundations of proper breathing are in the slt…first the fundamentals… sticking one’s tongue to the palate etc are not fundamental in the slt. While you are trying to do that at the start (for relative newbies) the rest of the structure
may not be developing properly.

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Most important

Hi Joy,

I would be interested in why, specifically, you feel that touching the tongue to the roof of the mouth compromises structure?

Also since you bring up the subject of keeping things in perspective for “newbies” which aspect of the SNT do you find most important? For example what aspect of the stance is most important for proper structure?

What I am getting at is that you seem to be of the opinion that there are portions of the SNT which are vital to training yet the aspect of breathing is not one of them. So, what in your opinion is the most vital or most needed portion of the SNT to be trained? Oh, please do not just say stance and structure but explain what about the stance is important and how it provides or supports structure.

You have stated that a properly performed SNT is the key. You mention the rolling of the hands working in tandem with inhalation and the sinking into the stance sinks the chi. Well, I am curious as to how one “sinks” the stance in order to sink the chi. Is it simply sitting or bending the knees? :wink:

So what are the most vital fundementals that a “newbie” should worry about? How would placing the tongue on the roof of ones mouth compromise ones structure?

Peace,

Dave

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Dave-see inserts. I dont like to write long email posts.

Most important
Hi Joy,
I would be interested in why, specifically, you feel that touching the tongue to the roof of the mouth compromises structure?

((One would need to understand the large orbit of which that is a part. A beginner and even most wc folks have enough of a challenge in just doing the slt right. Just the sequences are not enough. A beginner has enough to do in coordinating the right mind and action with the slt. If someone wants to properly learn circulating the chi in the large orbit separately from the slt-not a problem))

Also since you bring up the subject of keeping things in perspective for “newbies” which aspect of the SNT do you find most important? For example what aspect of the stance is most important for proper structure?

((All/important. Towers can collapse witha few mistakes,
Chest in, bring in tail, knees/toes in, know your gravitational path,
sunk fists a little away from the body,sink elbows, shoulders and dan tien, head and neck straight, lower back straight, edge of heels slightly wider than shoulder, eyes straight ahead, chin tucked a little bit in- sink the whole structure without tightening up…mind alert on the integrity of the structure and the clarity
and limit of each motion.))

What I am getting at is that you seem to be of the opinion that there are portions of the SNT which are vital to training yet the aspect of breathing is not one of them.

((Gee Dave,Read again-I DID NOT SAY THAT. Repeat breathe naturally through the slt- no obstructions-no sanchin, no snorting, no kiya- flow of breath very important. Over time the breath will adjust to the exertion.))

So, what in your opinion is the most vital or most needed portion of the SNT to be trained? Oh, please do not just say stance and structure but explain what about the stance is important and how it provides or supports structure.

((Again-see above))

You have stated that a properly performed SNT is the key.

You mention the rolling of the hands working in tandem with inhalation and the sinking into the stance sinks the chi.

((If you do it right. This medium is no substitute for hands on testing of structural integrity))

Well, I am curious as to how one “sinks” the stance in order to sink the chi. Is it simply sitting or bending the knees?

((See above. Each persons height etc is different- but the principle of sinking remains. When I sink given my body I
sink about 4 inches straight down as though to sit on a backless chair.How far down will vary- per height,density, realaxation etc))

So what are the most vital fundementals that a “newbie” should worry about?
( Shouldnt “worry” -keep mind clear.See above)

How would placing the tongue on the roof of ones mouth compromise ones structure?

(many things to work on in slt. One can do other chi gung or standing stake things separately. Build the slt well first.
While there are some differences in slt among Yip Man’s top students- to the best of my knowledge the good ones have NOT suggested that newbies put their tongues up to the palate.
And i dont want to get intoa discussion of who is good. bad or ugly. Hey, feel free to do it your way)))Joy Chaudhuri

Peace,

Dave

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Yuanfen

I learned about connecting the conceptual vessel and the governing vessel when I studied Acupuncture years ago. I was aware of connecting the tongue to the upper palate apart from my gung fu studies. First of all, the tongue isn’t exactly placed at the roof of the mouth. It is placed between the front two teeth at the junction of the gum and teeth. I also learned this from one of my former sifus who was also a DR. of TCM. I don’t think that Dave was lecturing to begginers. He was stating what he learned. I don’t remember seeing where he wrote that the connection between the tongue was LAW. But I did read where you wrote,“Do NOT worry about putting you tongue on the roof etc.” Unless you’ve had some training in acupunture you should refrain for making unqualified statements. After all, we wouldn’t want to mislead any begginers. I have a library of acupunture books and note to backup what I say.
Peace

13

hey phil

“I don’t think that Dave was lecturing to begginers.”

Who cares what you think…Leave Yuanfen alone, he knows his stuff.

14

Sunkeun

Does Yuanfen really know his stuff???
You’re not being entirely aboveboard. But neither is a prospective Yuenfen. I could see Phil’s point - “you should refrain for making unqualified statements”

15

Phil-the same for Dave:Read carefully.

It is precisely because there are different models in chi gung,
that I was and am saying contrary to Dave’s advice—just do the slt to begin with and let the breath flow. There is enough chi gung in the slt for wing chun purposes. Dont need to introduce
other chi gung models. Similarly your reference to accupuncture
is irrelevant to the discussion.I dont know how you got to accupuncture- no where was i giving advice on an accupuncture
model or
different non wing chun circulations. My focus is solely on wing chun and building it’s foundation first.BTW, There is an old Sino-Indian connection in some forms of chi gung via the Yi Gin Ching. Then there are directional differences in various Buddhist and Taoist
approaches to chi gung. Different things to do with the tongue,
the order of breaths, the directional flows, postures, sounds etc.. Why introduce other models of the human body with their own purposes and logic.
Sticking just to wing chun is good enough. Hey-again-- if you want to do things differently or explain differently- the floor is yours. Parsimony and Occam’s razor are still good instruments
in sticking to the beautiful simplicity and elegance of the sil lim tao.

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OOOOOooook

Yuanfen you cannot separate gung fu from the five element theory and acupuncture. These concepts are inherent to Chinese culture as is Confuciusism. Even Chinese Buddhism has aspects of Confuciusism.
The Governing Meridian and the Conception Meridian are connected through the tongue which acts as a switch. The circuit is connected when the tip of the tongue touches the point where the gums meet the front two teeth. I know that you know a lot about East Indian culture. How in depth have you studied Chinese culture? Did you know that some southern systems teach to press your tongue when you punch? Choy Leih Faat, Hung Ga, Juk Lum Tong Long, Bak Mei and other south China styles use the five element theory in their gung fu.

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Calm down guys

Hello,

I would ask that we refrain from turning this into a ****ing match. While Joy and I may disagree on several things none of us needs to become disrespectful.

I would like to point out one glaring concept to everyone, particularily Joy. Just as there are several methods of Chi Gung there are many variations of Wing Chun. Each of us will naturaly feel our method is the best one. However, when we dismiss things which are done differently we sometimes miss the bigger picture. None of us, let me say that again, NONE of US has a monopoly on the ONE TRUE WAY of doing Wing Chun. Some people like to hide behind words or an intellectual front to hide an insecurity when faced with those who differ in opinion. Not referring to anyone in particular here;) I realize that accepting that someone who does things differently could have a valid point may be threatening to some of us. Still, when one looks at the big picture these very differences may open our eyes to the deeper gold found within our own approach.

I would also like to thank Phil for pointing out the position of the tongue. I realize my description was vague and did not specify the correct placement.

I guess the bottom line is simply this; If you choose to incorporate the breathing variations into the SNT then do so. If it makes you feel better or you believe it helps you then so much the better. If you choose not to then that is fine too. However, to try to judge someone else and their methods, particularily in this medium shows, IMHO either ones insecurity or an inflated ego.

I am far from the best Wing Chun guy out there. I have been fortunate enough to study with some fairly good people although I am hardly a representative of anyone but myself. However, for a good many years I worked in Law enforcement first as a Correctional Officer and then as a Police Officer. I have had the opportunity to test out some of the methods I was taught on the street in less than friendly encounters. All I can say is that it worked for me, regardless of the level of my confusion or how wrong I was :stuck_out_tongue: These were real fights some with weapons some with more than one opponent not an intellectual discussion of which method worked better. When and if I teach someone then I try to show them as many variations as possible. While some may feel this is confusing, my students have a grasp of the basic concepts of differing views. They then take the approach which works best for them and run with it, so to speak. Some choose to incorporate the tongue on the roof method some don’t. Neither one is 100% right or wrong. If I remember correctly Yip Man was once approached by two students doing a technique two different ways. When asked who was doing it correctly Yip Mans reply was that both were correct.

Much like this situation, each approach has merits and will depend on the situation. Some will crawl for longer periods of time and some will be able to walk quite quickly. The instructor has the responsibility of gearing the lessons to the students abilities.

Peace,

Dave

18

Phil-my comments in brackets below

((You are goiing further away from the original question on the role of the tongue in sil lim tau))

OOOOOooook

(Sorry, I dont speak in tongues.My main point is- lets Keep the slt
free of additional contraptions))))

Yuanfen you cannot separate gung fu from the five element theory and acupuncture. These concepts are inherent to Chinese culture as is Confuciusism. Even Chinese Buddhism has aspects of Confuciusism.

((Thanks for the Cook’s tour -lets just say that you dont know my background. There many seamless interconnected webs in cultures and knowledge)) ))

The Governing Meridian and the Conception Meridian are connected through the tongue which acts as a switch. The circuit is connected when the tip of the tongue touches the point where the gums meet the front two teeth.

((Read amonng other things— YangJwing-Ming’s work on listing the VARIETIES of chi kung and alternatives on dealing with cycles.))
I know that you know a lot about East Indian culture. How in depth have you studied Chinese culture?

(An assumption- you dont know me except for list posts. My interests in Chinese culture are considerable and I do not oversimplify cultures or have a mechanistic conception of the realationships between systems of thought ina culture. Cultures are neither monolithic or static.))

Did you know that some southern systems teach to press your tongue when you punch?

(Far afield- lots of differences in the southern styles too in body mechanics-we are talking about the sil lim tao…again you can do it any way you want to. I have stated my case))

Choy Leih Faat, Hung Ga, Juk Lum Tong Long, Bak Mei and other south China styles use the five element theory in their gung fu.

(There is the seamless web…lots of interconnections between many things. BIG IDEAS. My idea-Lets stick to the little idea of the sil lim tao-the gateway… and not make it into one of Rube Goldberg’s contraptions—overloading it with whatever ideas
on the tongue that come to Dave’s mind or yours. There are enough differences already anyway in slt on opening the stance and the position of the feet etc))

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Dave

You have a point. I’m not going to press this issue anymore. We are all brothers here IMHO.
Paz

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Hi Dave-

Problems when you engage in discussions asa participant and also weara moderators hat at the same time in your last post.
Would be good to know which hat is involved and when in your posts..
You asked for an explanation(see your own previous post)
of my position and I gave it. Clearly enough. And I did not argue that anyone should adopt my view. Really am a fairly tolerant guy who does not need to fight the forces of darkness or test folk’s knowledge of Chinese culture, of Mandarin, cantonese, acupuncture. 5 element theory, confucianism, buddhism, tongue anatomy and other things.
Yes, I know there are many varieties of things under the wing chun label…but that shouldnt limit serious discussion of who does what when and why and Dave you did ask for an elaboration. So dont run behind the mask of pluralism. I seriously doubt that Wong Shon leung, Tsui Tsong Tin, or Ho kam Ming
taught tongue position on the teeth or palate as being crucial to learning and doing the slt. I know that Master Ho didnt and I have seen the first two do their SLT… except for the openings and a different movement or two–its same old same old SLT
…just have to practice it regularly and chi gung will take care of itself. naturally..