People who actually become properly ordained Buddhist monks are doing so for religious reasons, not because they want to become top martiall artists.
It might be that by chance one or two are also gifted martial artists. However, for forms, professional wushu players are far superior to the average Shaolin monk, and for fighting, pro san da fighters are far superior to the average Shaolin monk.
This is inevitable as the pros are selected out of a vast pool of talent and provided with high level training from an early age. Shaolin is more famous for its hard qigong than for the actual high level (relative to others in China) of the monks. Still, the average monk is ridiculously higher level than the average western CMAist who is fond of saying how rubbish they are. It’s all a matter of degree.
[QUOTE=gunbeatskroty;1252354]
The Ultimate Fighter is coming to China, so let’s see what the Chinese can do. IMO, I don’t think they’ll even come close to the level of fighters being produced from the USA and Brazil.[/QUOTE]
Why do you think this? China is generally pretty good at putting out quality athletes, (at least in the Olympics.) Sanda is a great standup system and they are starting to learn ground game over there…
I think once they get more serious, better organized fight circuits and tweak the training for MMA I think we’ll see world class fighters come out of China…they’re 20 years behind USA and even further behind Brazil on this, but I suspect it won’t take them too long to catch up.
They are individuals with names and personalities, you know…
People like to talk about “them” in a general sense when in fact they know absolutely nothing about them individually. How can anything be said when one doesn’t even know who exactly they’re talking about?
[QUOTE=Miqi;1252369]It might be that by chance one or two are also gifted martial artists. However, for forms, professional wushu players are far superior to the average Shaolin monk, and for fighting, pro san da fighters are far superior to the average Shaolin monk.[/QUOTE]
This depends entirely on your definition of forms and fighting, and your standards for both. Speaking in a “general” sense and with Shaolin wugong purpose and standards, I would disagree on both counts.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1252376]This depends entirely on your definition of forms and fighting, and your standards for both. Speaking in a “general” sense and with Shaolin wugong purpose and standards, I would disagree on both counts.[/QUOTE]
There are three major incidents that took place in the 20th century that warranted tracking as far as where the Shaolin fighting monks went.
1- The destruction of the Shaolin Temple in 1928
2- The establishment of Communism in 1949
3- The Cultural Revolution
There have been no real tracking of the dispersion of Shaolin fighting arts during these periods. I learned that there was a high level fighting monk in NYC Chinatown during the 1970’s; if indicative of anything, it is that there may be clues to the diaspora contained within international Buddhist temple traditions, a very neglected area of research.
people who claim there are no “real shaolin” in china always have alterior motives, mostly claiming by coincidence they just happen to have the “real shaolin”.
if you mean real monk warriors, there are documented footages of monks from various temples in the Shaolin area and from other regions, from north to south, practicing Shaolin kong fu, who break a stone with a single blow of their hands, break tree trunks with their forearm blows, grind a piece of stone between two fingers, tear a tree trunk with their claws, break walls with their heads, chew steel bars with their teeth, deliver more than 12 blows in one second or so, etc, etc.
none of those big 130+ Kg so-called fighter guys can withstand one single blow of such warrior monks. these fat westerners can call themselves ‘fighters’ just because their rivals are also like them, no martial art strategies, more weight, more chance to win!
[QUOTE=SHemmati;1252409]
none of those big 130+ Kg so-called fighter guys can withstand one single blow of such warrior monks. these fat westerners can call themselves ‘fighters’ just because their rivals are also like them, no martial art strategies, more weight, more chance to win![/QUOTE]
Shemmati…you don’t really think Western fighters have no strategy except to be fatter than their opponent do you? :rolleyes:
of course, this is not just the case with western so-called fighters. in China, because of the modern world developments, less and less people tend to devote their lives to the ancient methods of kong fu heroes. but that doesn’t mean such people do not exist in the world anymore.
furthermore, as seems, kong fu is a way of a strange kind of enlightenment for them, it’s sacred. they mostly don’t tend to fight, especially a theatrical fight in front of some people, who know nothing of this sacred things, just to enjoy, bet, and drink more wine! oh no! forget it guys!
yes, i agree with you. if there’s a true method of the true warriors, that they think is sacred and precious, why not letting the world know it? so that everybody who needs it to become a better human, pursues it, and others live their lives? of course, many people in this between will enjoy.
just watch this short piece of the life of a true disciple. he seems to be just a doctor, not a martial artist, but he’s a descendent of a tradition of qigong experts. look how he’s cautious about the sacred traditions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MC6DC8X5wA
qi is real, and indeed simple phenomenon, but the world doesn’t know, or even believe it, because, unfortunately, these true masters hide it, while some charlatans rant about it!
[QUOTE=SHemmati;1252414]qi is real, and indeed simple phenomenon, but the world doesn’t know, or even believe it, because, unfortunately, these true masters hide it, while some charlatans rant about it![/QUOTE]
I had a long discussion with the main coach of the Chinese Olympic Judo/wrestling team on this subject. We all know that Chinese government would pay any price for the Olympic gold metals. The coach said, “If Qi work on the mat then what do you think that I’m doing here for?”
He had a good point there. If Qi works, Chines government would find those “true masters” no matter where they might hide, and force them to teach how to use Qi on the wrestling mat.
OK, may be Qi just doesn’t work well on the wrestling mat. How about in the boxing ring? Chinese government would be interested in the Olympic boxing gold metal as well.
If Qi can neither work on the wrestling mat nor work in boxing ring then where can Qi be useful?
There are three major incidents that took place in the 20th century that warranted tracking as far as where the Shaolin fighting monks went.
1- The destruction of the Shaolin Temple in 1928
2- The establishment of Communism in 1949
3- The Cultural Revolution
There have been no real tracking of the dispersion of Shaolin fighting arts during these periods. I learned that there was a high level fighting monk in NYC Chinatown during the 1970’s; if indicative of anything, it is that there may be clues to the diaspora contained within international Buddhist temple traditions, a very neglected area of research.
mickey[/QUOTE]
None of those events would force them to flee the country, and of course we know individuals who remained through each event. The motive for the burning of the monastery wasn’t to kill the monks, and there are numerous other monasteries all over Songshan (which people don’t seem to realize). It is ridiculous to think that any of those events would force all the monks of Shaolin Monastery to flee the country and show up in Chinatowns around the world. Bawang is probably right again…
[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1252372]Why do you think this? China is generally pretty good at putting out quality athletes, (at least in the Olympics.) Sanda is a great standup system and they are starting to learn ground game over there…
[/QUOTE]
That’s true that they crank out some excellent athletes for the Olympics. I’m just not sure why they can’t do the same for champion fighters. Sanda is pitted against Muay Thai in general, and does well. But we still don’t see Chinese champions in the main K-1 tournament.
Furthermore, Kung-Fu does have grappling, so is it just weak grappling? And Japan is where Jiu-Jitsu originated and they have Pride, Shoot Fighting, etc. yet the Japanese still can’t match the American & Brazilians in MMA. Granted that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu revolutionized the ground game of Jujutsu & Judo, but much of BJJ’s ground game for these Japanese arts are still there in JJJ & Judo.
If anything, BJJ is not the dominating force any longer in the UFC, like it was in the early days. Especially with Dana White, aka Mr. Clean…making it very clear that he wants “exciting fights only”, which means no pure grab-assers will get too many fights. He wants standup, bloody and KO’s. So this should favor the Kung-Fu & Sanda fighters of China. Ground game is still essential, just not as much.
Lastly, China pumps a ton of money into their sports program to bring national pride in forms of title belts and trophies to their country. Incredible govt’ subsidy to Chinese athletes compared to American athletes who are usually, all self funded. Not to mention a lot of money in the top tier UFC fighters. Then there’s Boxing, where the most money can be made. Why can’t China produce good fighters?
I’ll get flamed for this, but my opinion is that Asians just aren’t as good in the fighting game, even though our culture is fully engulfed in chopsocky movies.
[QUOTE=SHemmati;1252409]if you mean real monk warriors, there are documented footages of monks from various temples in the Shaolin area and from other regions, from north to south, practicing Shaolin kong fu, who break a stone with a single blow of their hands, break tree trunks with their forearm blows, grind a piece of stone between two fingers, tear a tree trunk with their claws, break walls with their heads, chew steel bars with their teeth, deliver more than 12 blows in one second or so, etc, etc.
none of those big 130+ Kg so-called fighter guys can withstand one single blow of such warrior monks. these fat westerners can call themselves ‘fighters’ just because their rivals are also like them, no martial art strategies, more weight, more chance to win![/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=gunbeatskroty;1252432]of course, what else? pretend fighting? or kicking some drunk in the nuts and run? :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
One on one fair matches in a protective environment with protective rules and whatnot with no risk of serious injury or death… especially highly restrictive sanda comps… that is pretend fighting… not the be all and end all.
