Just looking for any comments.
Danke.
Seen Both
I found Xie Peiqi’s tape to be very interesting, especially since instead of Chin na (control- locks) I found a number of traditional Shuai(Throw/Trip) techniques initiated by grappling (Na). I must say I was impressed with his ability at that age. I wish I could of seen him in his younger days.
Tim Cartmell’s tape was decent, although I dont think your ever going to throw someone as effortless as he makes it look. Especially when they too, know how to fight! I must applaud his stand in, Glen (?) who took all the falls. My friends call him “Gumby”.
I dont think your going to be too disapointed in either unless your looking for locks and holds specifically or unless you have experience in a throwing art.
I’ll step up STF’s comments by saying you probably wont be disappointed even if you do have experience in the throwing arts. Tim’s book gives a different perspective of many common throws.
Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.
Having played plenty of throwing arts, I wholeheartedly endorse Tim Cartmell’s book. It is an excellent primer on executing throwing techniques.
He offers the reader a paradigm for learning that really suits the Western student.
Best of all for people who are not complete MA nuts, it is ‘style neutrual’, so you do not have to know the language of a specific style to learn from this book. An excellent book all around.
I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.
A friend traded me both of the videos, and I finally found Tim’s book about a month ago. Great stuff.
I was more impressed with Cartmells’ stuff than Xie’s, though. But that was probably the format, which was quite clinical and dry. It really reminded me of when I first read the Enochian sources and it started getting into I-ching type stuff, real complex and each chapter a subtle variation of the previous one.
With some of Cartmell’s stuff, I can see pulling it off easily and some of it I just don’t see happening, but it at least presents an idea.
However, while an effortless throw might mean you have the thing down properly, I believe that you should use some power to do it. A twist head spiral throw done with power could be devastating or fatal.
“I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust.”
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice
Hey guys. Thanks for the info. It’s definitely the throwing I’m interested in. I’m not a big fan of locks/holds for myself, except maybe in a very transient and supportive role.
I’m just looking for some inspiration to draw more throwing out of my bagua as I continue to develop it. I’d considered taking up judo or aikido in this regard (or ideally shiao chiao, but I can’t find any in Canada), but I’m wary of venturing too far from my bagua, since the goal here is fleshing IT out, rather than finding something truly new.
I’ll probably pick up both of these offerings at some point, as you guys are supporting the previous positive comments I’d heard. I don’t have the cash for either now, but if I put myself on a strict Ramen noodle diet for a few weeks, I bet I can squeeze one purchase in before evil tuition time.
Sam - does any of this stuff compare to any of Erle’s material? I gather he’s not very throwing-oriented, but who knows.
Thanks again guys. 
Braden - seek out some Shuai Chiao. Particularly if your BaGua is Gao style.
I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.
Oh yeah… do you think Tim’s stuff melds well with bagua?
MonkeySlap - Man, I’d love to. I’m positive there’s none hiding in Ottawa though. I’m moving sometime in the next year or so, probably to Vancouver. Hopefully there’s a SC man hiding in China Town there. 
Jiang Rong Qiao / Cheng Ting Hua style BTW.
Hi Braden,
Yeah, Tim’s stuff melds very well with Bagua. He practices some style of it as far as I know, but I forget which one. He has also studied Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. When I looked through the book, I was able to correlate many of the throws with movements from the Old Yang Taiji form, and some of them I was able to correlate with my Bagua form as well. For instance, the throw I mentioned above could be applications for Double P’eng, Rollback, and Chee. And the sections on body use and mechanics gave some new insight into exactly how many of the throws should be done in Taiji and Bagua. While Erle tends to focus more on point striking, the throws are still there. I learned all the point striking stuff first, and in the past couple of years have started experimenting with other stuff, and consequently have gotten more into throwing and chin-na.
That Ramen noodle gig sucks, doesn’t it? I’ve been there before, man. Just make your purchase worth it. If you can squeeze both of them in, I would suggest Cartmell’s book and tape both. The book goes into details you can’t possibly put on tape, and the tape shows every throw in full motion. Maybe later on, if you still want Xie’s tape, add that to your collection. Cartmell’s stuff is just so detailed.
“I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust.”
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice
Tim’s book
Braden,
Tim’s stuff doesn’t blend well with bagua. It IS bagua. I’m studying from the same bagua teacher that he studied from, Luo De Xiu of the Gao style, and I can tell you that from what I see the throwing book is all bagua. However, he sems to have picked some of the more simpler throws that are less characteristically bagua. Maybe this was to appeal to a wider range of styles. I’m not sure. But the book is excellent none the less.
Actually I’ve spotted some throws straight out of Taiji as well. The two that come to mind off the top of my head are the Shoulder stroke (self explanatory) And the second neck take down that is toward the back of the book (single whip).
The Bagua throws are easy to spot as well. I havent noticed any Hsing Yi in the material, but someone more familair with the art might be able to.
Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.
Tim Cartmell ROCKS!
I’ve been a student of Tim’s for a few years, the guy’s just amazing. He’s fluent in Chinese, even ancient Chinese, very knowledgeable about IMA and fighting arts in general, one of the smartest people I’ve ever met…super nice and nearly as funny as he thinks he is.
I’ve studied lots of stuff, and I’ve watched loads of teachers and Tim is absolutely one of the best. Many of his students are masters/teachers of various styles who come to him to really see what the deal is. Anyone in Southern California who seriously wants to learn Internal MARTIAL Arts should drop by his school (it’s about 15 minutes from Disneyland). He doesn’t do magical chi crap- but what he does do amazes people all the time.
The throws from his videos–(which ARE effortless as long as you can ‘set them up’ properly… THAT’s the hard part)-- are just a small portion of what he teaches regularly. And he’s well adept at explaining things so that anyone can understand them.
Check out ShenWu.com for more info
(if you go to the links/virtual school there are some great clips of sparring action.)
Peace, Love and applesauce
Sum Guye.
Dr Xie
I cant vouch for cartmell personally, but I can guarantee that I am very very impressed with Dr Xie. In fact there are about 6 people I have met in my 20 years of martial arts in asia or outside of asia that impress me at all. I highly recommend anything by Dr Xie.
Peace,
Yi Beng Kan Xue
Cartmell’s video demonstrations and written explanations are among the clearest on the market, in any martial art. He’s really knowledgeable. What I particularly like is his attempts to distill the essence of the various internal martial arts (“Shen Wu”)to principles that can be applied to different fighting situations. I like both his “Effortless Combat Throws” and “Practical Chin-na” tapes and books (the latter book a great translation of Zhao Da Yuan’s original–at Zhao’s request). Of course there is always the problem of an individual translating what is on the tape/book into a real-life fight–on the street or in a tournament. But I liked them well enough to have gotten additional copies as contributions to the local libraries in different cities I’ve practiced in.
I really like the half-dozen Xie Peiqi tapes I’ve seen. The presentation is very clear and professional. A little more in-depth explanation would be useful, but the demonstrations are pretty good. Xie represents a deep and effective martial tradition from China.
The limitation with either Cartmell’s or Xie’s materials is the inherent limitation of studying from any book or videotape. The teacher isn’t there with you, offering in-depth correction of YOUR execution and practice. Seminars and study groups help–but are limited. Cartmell is in the LA area, teaching on a regular basis. Xie is in Beijing, and it’s my understanding that he won’t be coming much to the US anymore (he’s 80), although his inheritor He Jinbao will continue to come once or twice a year (he was in the Bay Area this summer).
If your own regular teacher knows about the material and can comment/incorporate on it, that’s helpful, too.