# Annual CLF FIGHTING tournament? **URL:** \ **Category:** Southern Chinese Kung Fu\ **Created:** [September 6, 2010, 6:46am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/annual-clf-fighting-tournament/49073 "2010-09-06T06:46:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Eric\_Olson](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/eric_olson/32/847_2.png) [@Eric\_Olson](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Eric_Olson)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 1:47am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/annual-clf-fighting-tournament/49073/21 "2010-10-04T01:47:44Z")
[QUOTE=Violent Designs;1044054]Why can’t you not use the forearm and hit the head… it’s like a hook, it comes from the side. Also from my experience the technique “kup chui” and “sau chui” are even used interchangeably. For one, my teacher calls sau chui what some other branches might call sau chui. To be honest with 8-12 oz. BOXING gloves on I’d rather throw a hard hook or overhand and hit with the two first big knuckles, than using either sau or kup chui.[/QUOTE] You’d have to have adamantium bones to hit someone in the skull with your forearm without breaking it! A general goal of kung fu is to hurt the opponent worse than you hurt yourself. The old maxim is “hard hits soft and soft hits hard.” That means keeping bone on bone contact to a minimum EO ---
**Author:** ![Eric\_Olson](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/eric_olson/32/847_2.png) [@Eric\_Olson](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Eric_Olson)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 1:49am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/annual-clf-fighting-tournament/49073/22 "2010-10-04T01:49:14Z")
[QUOTE=nospam;1044051]man..you’re fighting at arm’s length then. nospam. 🆒[/QUOTE] 😕 Aren’t you always fighting at arms length…or “legs length” if you’re a good kicker? EO ---
**Author:** ![Violent\_Designs](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/violent_designs/32/887_2.png) [@Violent\_Designs](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Violent_Designs)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 7:38am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/annual-clf-fighting-tournament/49073/23 "2010-10-04T07:38:45Z")
[QUOTE=Eric Olson;1044062]You’d have to have adamantium bones to hit someone in the skull with your forearm without breaking it! A general goal of kung fu is to hurt the opponent worse than you hurt yourself. The old maxim is “hard hits soft and soft hits hard.” That means keeping bone on bone contact to a minimum EO[/QUOTE] A forearm is harder than a fist… So they my fist should also break hitting someone in the face right? Fighting is rough and unpredictable. It is violence and chaotic. Sometimes there is no option other than taking a shot to give one of your own. You cannot check kicks without bruising up your shin. You cannot intercept strikes without stick your forearm out, chuen sau. You’re being far too picky about “where you will hit” and “where you will strike.” To be a fighter you have to keep the action going even after you get hurt. I remember I hit my foot against someone’s elbow in sparring when throwing a kick. It hurt like a \*\*\*\*\*, even with shin guards on. But what should I have done? Quit? No, keep the action going, continue the combination and attack. I hit you in the face with my fist, it hurt, OK. Ignore that pain and continue the action until you have won. Fighting is not just about giving pain, it’s about taking it, ignoring it to the best of your abilities, and going through with it after that. In a fight if my strike lands, I am already grateful for my training and skill. Even if the impact hurt me, as long as it it HURT THE OTHER GUY MORE, I am grateful. We cannot pick and choose so carefully. There is always the theory behind everything, but in a fight you have to take what you get. You’re lucky because you have height/reach over everyone else but I don’t have that luxury. You can spam thrust kicks and jabs all day if you have to. I can’t, I need to get into using very invasive footwork and hit brutally fast and hard with high frequency and heavy penetration in order to hurt someone big and tough. And if I’m good at taking a punch… I have good toughness? Maybe I will survive and be the winner/survivor. ---
**Author:** ![bawang](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/bawang/32/3554_2.png) [@bawang](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/bawang)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 8:11am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/annual-clf-fighting-tournament/49073/24 "2010-10-04T08:11:48Z")
wot kind tranings r u doings mang ---
**Author:** ![Violent\_Designs](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/violent_designs/32/887_2.png) [@Violent\_Designs](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Violent_Designs)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 9:26am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/annual-clf-fighting-tournament/49073/25 "2010-10-04T09:26:02Z")
[QUOTE=bawang;1044104]wot kind tranings r u doings mang[/QUOTE] thai boxing and buk sing le… i used to get punched a lot in the face. ☹ but, a lot less now after learning blocking with my face is a bad idea. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Violent\_Designs](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/violent_designs/32/887_2.png) [@Violent\_Designs](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Violent_Designs)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 12:03am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/annual-clf-fighting-tournament/49073/26 "2010-10-06T00:03:56Z")
[QUOTE=Eric Olson;1044062]You’d have to have adamantium bones to hit someone in the skull with your forearm without breaking it! A general goal of kung fu is to hurt the opponent worse than you hurt yourself. The old maxim is “hard hits soft and soft hits hard.” That means keeping bone on bone contact to a minimum EO[/QUOTE] Eric, that is one maxim. As such I must strongly disagree with you on this subject. Another one would be to use hard against hard. If you have put in more training and are harder than your opponent, you will be the victor. There is one method in Thai Boxing, of wearing your opponent’s defenses down by repeatedly slamming your shin against their guard (forearms). Eventually this dumbs their arms and forces them to drop the defenses, and you have penetrated and can now go for the kill. That is one example of hard on hard. Shin on shin blocking, is also hard against hard. The one with the better conditioned body wins. I would also believe that MANY Hung Kuen practitioners would vehemently disagree with your opinion that bone-on-bone contact should be kept to a minimal. This may be advocated in Taiji Quan, but please do not act as if this is the only adage which holds true across ALL Chinese martial arts. As you well know, Chinese arts differ in the hundreds and one art’s method may be completely alien, or even contradictory, to those found in another art. This does not just end in fighting methods or techniques, but also underlying essence; the theories and philosophies of the art. My honest opinion is that there is no one way. Combat is chaotic, dynamic, and violent. Only using one method may work at times, but ultimately you will have your failures if you cannot adjust during the motions of body movement, fists flying into your face, and the pain your opponent will inflict upon you. ---
**Author:** ![hskwarrior](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/hskwarrior/32/612_2.png) [@hskwarrior](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/hskwarrior)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 12:42am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/annual-clf-fighting-tournament/49073/27 "2010-10-06T00:42:36Z")
> You’d have to have adamantium bones to hit someone in the skull with your forearm without breaking it! well, for one, isn’t this why we practice 3 star blocking? to toughen our arms for this type of contact? additionally, the head isn’t going to remain still…its going to move with the strike or get moved by the strike. hit the back of the neck, the side of the neck or strike him on the side of the head. i don’t see an issue with that. > A general goal of kung fu is to hurt the opponent worse than you hurt yourself. The old maxim is “hard hits soft and soft hits hard.” that sounds like some taichi philosophy. LOL. > There is one method in Thai Boxing, of wearing your opponent’s defenses down by repeatedly slamming your shin against their guard (forearms). Eventually this dumbs their arms and forces them to drop the defenses, and you have penetrated and can now go for the kill. That is one example of hard on hard. Shin on shin blocking, is also hard against hard. The one with the better conditioned body wins. one of my favorite sweeps is shin to shin. but we all must realize if you don’t condition your limbs you can end up like this dude right here: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHKfslaMXuk](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHKfslaMXuk) but look, this is the whole reason why he left CLF anyway. its just not for fu pow. ---
**Author:** ![Eric\_Olson](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/eric_olson/32/847_2.png) [@Eric\_Olson](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Eric_Olson)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 2:13am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/annual-clf-fighting-tournament/49073/28 "2010-10-06T02:13:21Z")
[QUOTE=Violent Designs;1044681] I would also believe that MANY Hung Kuen practitioners would vehemently disagree with your opinion that bone-on-bone contact should be kept to a minimal.[/quote] The phrase used in Hung Kuen is a body like “steel wrapped in cotton”…key word being cotton. > This may be advocated in Taiji Quan, but please do not act as if this is the only adage which holds true across ALL Chinese martial arts. It’s a pretty universal Chinese Martial Arts maxim, not specific to any style. ---
**Author:** ![darkie1973](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/darkie1973/32/972_2.png) [@darkie1973](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/darkie1973)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 4:09am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/annual-clf-fighting-tournament/49073/29 "2010-10-06T04:09:55Z")
Gonna have to agree with hskwarrior,… I’m not Choy Li Fut,… tibetan white crane,… but we do share many similar techniques. Put simply,… what the heck is 4 star arms training for BUT VIOLENT BONE ON BONE CLASHING for conditioning in defence and offense (limb destruction.) There’s all kind of poetic chinese sayings about this and that,… the chinese are a poetic people (their \*\*\*\* medical texts and cook books read like friggin’ poetry for god’s sake,) but I don’t always got time for poems when I’m to trying kick someones ass! My teacher (who’s also an ex-army ranger) used to say: “There’s philosophers and there’s fighters,… every one’s got a plan,… 'til they get punched in the face!”:eek: ---
**Author:** ![hskwarrior](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/hskwarrior/32/612_2.png) [@hskwarrior](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/hskwarrior)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 5:08am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/annual-clf-fighting-tournament/49073/30 "2010-10-06T05:08:44Z")
> 'til they get punched in the face!" eggzachery ---
**Author:** ![Violent\_Designs](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/violent_designs/32/887_2.png) [@Violent\_Designs](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Violent_Designs)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 6:06am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/annual-clf-fighting-tournament/49073/31 "2010-10-06T06:06:54Z")
[QUOTE=Eric Olson;1044711]The phrase used in Hung Kuen is a body like “steel wrapped in cotton”…key word being cotton. [/QUOTE] You are intentionally leaving out the steel aspect? Some Hung guys may play it harder, some softer. But I have never met ONE SINGLE Hung Kuen practitioner who was afraid of a little “bone-on-bone” action. Have you? In fact, most Hung Kuen guys seem to welcome it… with a lot of malicious intent. My former Hung Kuen sifu was a big fan of fukcing you up by bashing your arms to death with his arms, because that route did the most damage, cut your defenses down and hurt you at the same time. Are you saying his method is incorrect? > It’s a pretty universal Chinese Martial Arts maxim, not specific to any style. Then the burden of proof is on you to prove that is a “generic Chinese martial art maxim.” Furthermore you are using one SIMPLE statement to try and describe fighting, which is complex, chaotic, and violent (I already said this…). It is not so SIMPLE as merely “use soft to overcome hard, use hard to overcome soft.” These are all relativistic concepts; in a fight you must try to impose your strategy, your style, your strengths while minimizing your weaknesses. This is another “definition” behind this maxim. However you are interpreting it at FACE-VALUE. There is more than that. Also, you ignored the other points I made regarding using your shin to check kicks, using your kicks to break down guards, to weaken the forearm and defenses. You were in Choy Lay Fut for a long time, surely you understand the underlying concept behind using a gwa chui or a sau chui to smash the guard of your opponent to FORCE the gate open? You may not like it, use it, or even disagree with how healthy the concept is… but would you really go so far as to say the concept and technique is WRONG or DOESN’T WORK? Because it clearly does. Are you saying that checking a kick with your shin is WRONG? Tell that to the Thai boxers who have been checking kicks with shin-to-shin action for generations now. In Muay Thai having a tough body is fundamental, because it is assumed you WILL be kicked, you WILL be punched, you WILL get kneed and elbowed. To always think that “soft will overcome hard, hard will overcome soft” is a fatal mistake. You can try, you may even succeed most of the time but… for those times when it DOES NOT WORK, you HAVE TO BE CONDITIONED TO TAKE THE BLOW AND CONTINUE THE ACTION. What will you do if you can’t catch a kick coming at you? If you can’t grab the guy? If you’re slower than him? If you cannot move away and evade in time? Will you just LET THE GUY KICK YOU IN THE THIGH, OR THE BODY? Will you say “I’m going to use my soft muscles to block his shin because I don’t want my shin to get hurt as well?” No, that’s a disaster waiting to happen. You check the god\*\*\*\*ed kick, you swallow the pain, and you continue the action because you are currently fighting. Do I enjoy banging my fists and arms and shins against theirs? Sometimes I even get an elbow on my shin or foot due to them blocking and spiking it. It hurts A LOT. But I prepare myself for these things, they are bound to happen. Martial arts can only be truly practiced in a full-contact environment. You cannot expect to always prevail, to have everything go your way, but I’m sure you already know this. Eric, I am not arguing with you regarding philosophy or what is healthy, good for longevity, good for health when you’re 90 years old, good for meditation, good for your psychology. Ii am only talking about the raw, gritty techniques in a real fight. \*\*\*\* happens, contact is made, and most of the time you CANNOT DO A THING ABOUT IT. Your opponent is trying to HURT you, and you are trying to do the same. There are techniques, which are high percentage, do damage, prevent damage being done to you, allow you to intercept/negate most of the damage (but still take some) and counterattack, etc. THESE are the things I am referring to. Lots of styles believe in honing the body, or parts of the body to become deadly weapons. Southern Mantis and Bak mei vigorously conditions the Phoenix-Eye Fist. Buk Sing is obsessed with the Panther Fist. Muay Thai focuses on conditioning the shin, knees, and elbows. Most southern kung fu does A LOT of conditioning of the forearm through saam sing and other exercises. A lot of styles use neigong for IRON BODY and such, in order to WITHSTAND BLOWS. Are you claiming that all of these methods are wrong for combat? They are inferior to your own methods or concepts derived from either your CLF training, your Taiji training, or any other training you have done or stopped doing? Because that is quite arrogant to say. We have not met in many years but in all seriousness and honesty how much new things have you learned since say, four years ago? Have you been sparring and fighting regularly? I used to be a fukcing noob but in the past three years have made a lot of progress, and have gotten my ass BEAT countless times to the point where I’m forced to look at fighting and martial arts as honestly as possible with as much humility as possible. I am competing, albeit I’m just an amateur, but when I have a guy in front of me trying to KNOCK ME THE FUKC OUT I am kinda forced to respond in favor, I have to hurt him first and harder than he can hurt me. But you seem to still be looking down at everyone else who does it “differently” than you yourself, this is not me talking sh1t but an honest opinion just from reading your posts. Of course, I know you better than that but four years is a long time and people can change quickly. I’ve said my piece because you seem only interested in provoking argument or playing devil’s advocate for the sake of being devil’s advocate. Either that or you genuinely look down at everyone else’s methodologies. It’s late and I have nothing to do so this is everything I have to say. I’m not going to argue anymore; my thread has already been massively derailed thanks to all those involved. I will probably make a new one sometime. ---
**Author:** ![Eric\_Olson](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/eric_olson/32/847_2.png) [@Eric\_Olson](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Eric_Olson)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 11:49am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/annual-clf-fighting-tournament/49073/32 "2010-10-06T11:49:24Z")
> It is not so SIMPLE as merely “use soft to overcome hard, use hard to overcome soft.” That’s a Taiji phrase (which BTW is usually misinterpreted). But that’s not what I wrote. The phrase was “hard hits soft and soft hits hard.” In other words, hit soft targets with hard body parts and hard targets with soft body parts. It’s really just common sense when you think about it…chinese mysticism not required. EO ---
**Author:** ![Violent\_Designs](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/violent_designs/32/887_2.png) [@Violent\_Designs](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Violent_Designs)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/annual-clf-fighting-tournament/49073/33 "2010-10-06T17:16:48Z")
My thigh is soft. Should I start blicking low kicks with my yhigh then? Stop avoiding my oyher questions man, I’m trying to have a legitimate conversation. I’ve made my rebuttals so make yours or I’ve won this argument by default of you not responding. Once again, is my Hung Ga sifu’s approach wrong? Is it wrong to force open the gates by using gwa, sau, been chui or using other bodyparts e.g. elbow, knee, or shin to SMASH AGAINST your opponent’s hard gate/bones? Is the CONCEPT of using bridges to smash your opponent’s wrong? The adage of “I attack your attack” causing pain, discomfort and damage? I am NOT SAYING these are the only ways or even the best ways. Of course avoiding unecessary damage is the best course of action but… if you cannot, would rather be prepaired to handle the pain or not? Do you suggest giving up instead? Never training to clash bones? In this case your best bet is to study BJJ, shuai jiao, wrestling or jujutsu… ---
**Author:** ![Eric\_Olson](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/eric_olson/32/847_2.png) [@Eric\_Olson](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Eric_Olson)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 11:42pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/annual-clf-fighting-tournament/49073/34 "2010-10-07T23:42:34Z")
[QUOTE=Violent Designs;1044821]My thigh is soft. Should I start blicking low kicks with my yhigh then?[/quote] How would you block a low kick with your thigh??? EO ---
**Author:** ![Violent\_Designs](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/violent_designs/32/887_2.png) [@Violent\_Designs](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Violent_Designs)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 12:05am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/annual-clf-fighting-tournament/49073/35 "2010-10-08T00:05:00Z")
Answer my question first and I’ll answer yours. ---
**Author:** ![Violent\_Designs](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/violent_designs/32/887_2.png) [@Violent\_Designs](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Violent_Designs)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 12:34am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/annual-clf-fighting-tournament/49073/36 "2010-10-08T00:34:20Z")
I’m contemplating deleting this thread and starting a new one. If you helped derail this one don’t even think about it again, FFS. I’m actually trying to get something going. Go argue techniques with me somewhere else, start your own \*\*\*\*ing thread, PM me, call me out on a thread, I don’t give a sh1t, stop derailing this one. ---
**Author:** ![Knifefighter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@Knifefighter](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Knifefighter)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 12:36am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/annual-clf-fighting-tournament/49073/37 "2010-10-08T00:36:50Z")
[QUOTE=Eric Olson;1044779]That’s a Taiji phrase (which BTW is usually misinterpreted). But that’s not what I wrote. The phrase was “hard hits soft and soft hits hard.” In other words, hit soft targets with hard body parts and hard targets with soft body parts. It’s really just common sense when you think about it…chinese mysticism not required. EO[/QUOTE] No it’s not common sense. Common sense is that hitting a hard body part with a soft one pretty much does nothing. Hitting any body part with a hard one always does the most damage. And you can pretty much forget about doing damage to anyone who has half a clue by hitting them in the neck. ---
**Author:** ![Violent\_Designs](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/violent_designs/32/887_2.png) [@Violent\_Designs](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Violent_Designs)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 12:54am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/annual-clf-fighting-tournament/49073/38 "2010-10-08T00:54:18Z")
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1045280]Hitting a hard body part with a soft one pretty much does nothing. Hitting any body part with a hard one always does the most damage.[/QUOTE] Knifefighter, you have the best-equipped personality and sharpness to deal with the likes of Eric Olson/Fu-Pow. Much appreciated. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Violent\_Designs](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/violent_designs/32/887_2.png) [@Violent\_Designs](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Violent_Designs)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/annual-clf-fighting-tournament/49073/39 "2010-10-08T01:13:16Z")
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1045280]Hitting a hard body part with a soft one pretty much does nothing. Hitting any body part with a hard one always does the most damage. And you can pretty much forget about doing damage to anyone who has half a clue by hitting them in the neck.[/QUOTE] This is what I said… people about your skill level are not stupid, if they are TRAINED FIGHTERS (which is what the general idea that I had). And if you actually land that and KO someone then congratulations. You did your job!!! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Eric\_Olson](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/eric_olson/32/847_2.png) [@Eric\_Olson](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Eric_Olson)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 3:02am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/annual-clf-fighting-tournament/49073/40 "2010-10-08T03:02:36Z")
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1045280]No it’s not common sense. Common sense is that hitting a hard body part with a soft one pretty much does nothing. Hitting any body part with a hard one always does the most damage.[/quote] You are taking that too literally. I don’t mean you should try to hit someone with your earlobe. > And you can pretty much forget about doing damage to anyone who has half a clue by hitting them in the neck. How so? EO [Previous page](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/annual-clf-fighting-tournament/49073.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/annual-clf-fighting-tournament/49073.md?page=3)