Alan Orr Questions 4 - Chain Punching

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1159670]True, but we are talking about chain striking so…

As long as you don’t assume that your opponent is reacting to you instead of ACTING upon you.

For sure, but in a certain way you are making my point and while I agree that angleing if crucial, i maintain my point that all the angles in the world won’t save you from getting hit if the opponent isn’t “preoccupied” with what you are doing.

Boxers are taught to go in, hit hard and often and get out BECAUSE it is assumed that the other guys is gonna hit back and hit back hard.
WC does NOT advocate the “get in, hit and get out” strategy and this is quite plain in chain striking IMO.[/QUOTE]
I didn’t know that you were referring to Chainpunching like how the Leung ting guys apply it. I don’t apply it that way, the way I apply it is linking defense to bring in offense. So my retreating hand is always doing something to set up or clear the way for my forward striking hand.

22

[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1159684]I didn’t know that you were referring to Chainpunching like how the Leung ting guys apply it. I don’t apply it that way, the way I apply it is linking defense to bring in offense. So my retreating hand is always doing something to set up or clear the way for my forward striking hand.[/QUOTE]

I think we may be talking a bit past each other or maybe about different things…allow me to clarify:
To repeat this part because it is crucial:
Boxers are taught to go in, hit hard and often and get out BECAUSE it is assumed that the other guys is gonna hit back and hit back hard.
WC does NOT advocate the “get in, hit and get out” strategy and this is quite plain in chain striking IMO.

I don’t recall any WC principle that advocates going in, hitting and getting out.
Do you?

23

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1159692]Boxers are taught to go in, hit hard and often and get out BECAUSE it is assumed that the other guys is gonna hit back and hit back hard.
WC does NOT advocate the “get in, hit and get out” strategy and this is quite plain in chain striking IMO.
[/QUOTE]

I’d agree with that. The controlling hands half of chain punching demonstrated in the videos are the WC answer to the problem of the other guy hitting back.

Good controlling hands are pretty hard to do in reality.

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[QUOTE=WingChunABQ;1159702]I’d agree with that. The controlling hands half of chain punching demonstrated in the videos are the WC answer to the problem of the other guy hitting back.

Good controlling hands are pretty hard to do in reality.[/QUOTE]

And that really is the jist of it, in reality it is very hard to control the hands/arms of an opponent that is hitting us, especially of we are hitting ( trying to) hit him at the same time.
And this “same timeing” happens a lot in a real fight.

25

Yup. Takes a lot of training and practice.

As for “getting out”, there are several examples of the principle in the footwork of the Chum Kiu, Biu Jee and Wooden Dummy forms.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1159692]I think we may be talking a bit past each other or maybe about different things…allow me to clarify:
To repeat this part because it is crucial:
Boxers are taught to go in, hit hard and often and get out BECAUSE it is assumed that the other guys is gonna hit back and hit back hard.
WC does NOT advocate the “get in, hit and get out” strategy and this is quite plain in chain striking IMO.

I don’t recall any WC principle that advocates going in, hitting and getting out.
Do you?[/QUOTE]

Boxing strategy -of get in, hit and get out is different from wc strategy of both hands and both side working together (north paw/ south paw ambidextrous work) and controlling. Wing chun takes longer to learn than boxing. Although in old boxing hip throws were known- with the evolution of boxing rules it’s primarily a striking art-
with the referee stopping throwing, grabbing, etc-the wing chun tool box is full of contoling tools. IMO and practice.Striking is only part of the wing chun game in my pov FWIW. Other povs can vary

PS I understood Alan’s good distinction between a good punch and one where the elbow goes straight up losing power.

joy chaudhuri.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1159692]Boxers are taught to go in, hit hard and often and get out BECAUSE it is assumed that the other guys is gonna hit back and hit back hard. [/QUOTE]

Although this is all true, In boxing one is also taught how to use angles and ring generalship. In fact Angles work off anticipating the opponent is going to hit back.

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1159692]WC does NOT advocate the “get in, hit and get out” strategy and this is quite plain in chain striking IMO.[/QUOTE]

I agree, that’s because WC works best in between clinching and boxing range, and prefers to fight in close. where as boxing uses the stick and move strategy which is more suited to long range fighters.

The wooden dummy techniques is a better example of how wing chun should function than chain punching in my opinion.

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1159692]I don’t recall any WC principle that advocates going in, hitting and getting out. Do you?[/QUOTE]

I agree in empty hands fighting, the exception probably being when fighting with baat jam do or pole and you have to regroup.

28

The Video is nice one from a boxing stand point…But chain punching in a static Posistion is unrealistic.

In Wing Chun we desire to end the fight quickly. Wing Chun is not an art about sticking and moving or slugging it out toe to toe with a guy to see who has the strongest chin. Wing Chun is about Controlling your opponent structure,elbow, centerline and posture. It’s about sticking or forward pressure to continously attack your opponent like a swarm of bees. Its about Continously attacking and hitting a guy until he is no more. No stick and move…Just stick and attack constantly…

there are various techniques in WC that utilize different aspects to control the opponent. There are also various basic Techniques that train power or the utilization of power in different facets…

Such as:

1.The Meridan Punch generates it power from YGKYM while facing the opponent. It uses the curl to issue force.

2.The Dragon punch is lauch from the YGKYM while turning the body or shifting the stance. In other words you use your waist to generate power. The power is generated and issued by way of Cho Ma.

3.The Arrow Punch is launched from the ding ma or forward stance. The Arrow Punch uses chasing steps or shooting steps to transfer power from the body. Your body weight adds more power to your punch as you front step either to keep up or to dart in. Its power comes from Toh Ma or Biu ma. You can combine Dragon Punch and Toh Ma for even greater power. An of course Biu ma allows for you to generate even more power since your body structure is being launched with greater velocity.

4.Chain Punch is different. It is practiced and drilled in YGKYM at first. In the air you can learn how to do three star chain punch and continous chain punch non-stop. Both have various applications I wont go into. But with the continous chain punch…One needs timing and senstivity to get it off properly. You dont just start chain punching for no reason. You have to either create an opening or feel for one. Creating Openings should be taught in san shou drills and also bridging the gap drills. Feeling for openings should be taught in chi sau which is the way you develop sensitivity in my wing chun. Gor sau is how you intergrate, innovate and culminate the skills, principles and theories learn from the system. Everything from the forms, drills, and chi sau should be intergrated into applicable fighting unit. If you lack Sensitivity how can you adapt to your opponents attack or counter attack. If you just go blinding running across the room chain punching in the air do expect your opponent to stand there an wait to be hit. You have apply chain punch when he doesn’t realize it is coming. Basic Techniques like Pak Da or Lop Dap or Jut Da give you the distraction you need to create an opening to utilize continous linked attacks. Once you utilize a meridan punch or arrow punch to gain entry or you damage your opponents structure you can launch the dreaded chain punches…The chain punch is not as powerful as the arrow punch or meridan punch, But it is faster than they are.

To build up your chain punch you can utilize a wall bag and a heavy bag to cultivate more power. In addition to that you can use wrist weights or dumb bells to develop more speed in power…Doing chain punch in the air slowly, medium and fast with weights will give you greater impact. Explosive push ups are also great in addition to other forms of push ups respective lineages may have. One should train every part of the punch indiviually and then all together. Such as the wrist, the Arm, The waist and the hips and the root.

If your chain punch is so weak that an opponent can launch a hook or an upper cut you need to work on basics first…If you are consecutively sticking and chain punching your opponent shouldnt be able to do anything but fall. The idea is to overwhelm him with precision strikes to his weak points to destroy his structure, control his centerline and make him no more. Punch when you should. Don’t Punch when you shouldn’t. You should have sensitivy and know when to strike. Your strickes should be precise and accurate. When you chain punch you apply Toh Ma and Biu Ma to generate power power with your chain punch. The speed is from the chain punch, the power is from Biu Ma. Your weight transfers behind your punches and your structure carries your power.

-Also One Should develop Skill-

If you have all techninque and principles but No skill your WC will be weak…The following is what makes up your skill level and makes you a better fighter…

1.Endurance
2.Stamina
3.Strength
4.Flexibility
5.Power
6.Speed
7.Coordination
8.Agility
9.Accuracy
10.Balance
11.Timing
12.Sensitivity

29

[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1159623]It depends on your angle![/QUOTE]

I agree angles are effective and important, the following was plucked from Augustine Fong’s Website, this is something that we are already know however I will post it for emphasis.

"Do not collide with a strong opponent.

A strong opponent’s defense cannot by easily blasted through; consequently you should not attack or contact the opponent’s power straight on. When faced with strong power do no go against it. Instead go around the direction of the power to attack at an angle so that you are not colliding with the strong position. The feeling of when to go in and when to go around is developed through wing chun sticky hands practice. This principle is also for timing so that when you feel strong power, that is not the time to attack directly but to go around. "
Source: http://www.fongswingchun.com/FIGHTING.pdf

If you have the ability to knock out every opponent with ever shot then you are a rare case. In reality there are those who can and can not take a well placed hit. For those who can, it is obvious that they will counter and this is the whole point of training chi sao, gor sao then graduating to sparing in wing chun. It is in those exercises that you can develop “your” ability to link/chain your attack while simultaneously trying to defend. And by defend I mean to either avoid trading hits or making it an “uneven trade”. Angle’s not only help you with defense (as phil would say using the blind side) but they also help with offense. Speed and timing are a must. What you can’t do with one hit you must do with more than one. There are not absolutes in wing chun or fighting in general. In any case that is my opinion, again great video Alan, keep them coming.

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[QUOTE=Alan Orr;1159580]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZnIVhighInU

Filmed a load of clips this week.

This one is on chain punching.

best Alan[/QUOTE]

FWIW I thought the best part of Alans clip was when he mentions the practicality in function of chained strikes being akin to the speedball training of a boxer. Learning static drills of lien wan kuen to develop a habit is one thing, and being able to apply this method in the thick of it is another. I agree 100%

But I will add that there seems to be confusion about the language implication with this sort of fistwork. Not so much from Alan, but from some of the posts here. ‘Lien Wan Kuen’ implies that the fists are linked and revolving continuously, More of a ‘stunning’ method for fast hands. If, like Alan, you are well versed enough to react to an aggressive fighter and continue to link up these fists you are doing something right :wink: but this isn’t ‘only’ Lien Wan because there is an element of receiving and giving pressure too. FME and learning we referred to this method as Seep Dai and this is exactly what Alan acheives here, continuing to express his Lien Wan fist work while receiving continuous attacks in different ways.

This is called Seep Dai Lien Wan Kuen.

So to be clear on the ‘power’ thing. If you are charging through the defense continuously, with pretty much no regard for what’s coming back atcha, this is called Lien Wan Chong Kuen. If you are stop/starting (but still quite continous) like in the clip you ar doing Seep Dai Lien Wan Kuen.

Both are simple ways of expressing the Wing Chun Fist, and both are present in Alans clip just not the only methods available to us, as (I think) Yoshi was also trying to explain.

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Hi Spencer, do you have the characters for ‘seep dai’ at hand? I can’t think of what they could be from your description.

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[QUOTE=CFT;1159810]Hi Spencer, do you have the characters for ‘seep dai’ at hand? I can’t think of what they could be from your description.[/QUOTE]

Now that would be ‘sharing too much’ lol! :wink: I will see when I get home…

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Really?!! TIA.

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I agree if your opponent can regain his posture from concussive chain punches then you need to be able to switch in the thick of things.

Personally you can train chain punches as 'Finishing techniques or entry technique(works well on weaker opponents).

I perfer to blast my opponent with a meridan punch first while or pak da or lop da to open his gates an stun him for a second before intiating linked chain punches.

When I start to cycle of continous chainpunches the idea in mind is to completely keep you compromise, off balance and hurt you. I not randomly hitting your head with link chains. My punches are bashing in your nose each and every time. As you move back i move in still punching the center of your face and hitting that Nose.

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1159809]FWIW I thought the best part of Alans clip was when he mentions the practicality in function of chained strikes being akin to the speedball training of a boxer. Learning static drills of lien wan kuen to develop a habit is one thing, and being able to apply this method in the thick of it is another. I agree 100%

But I will add that there seems to be confusion about the language implication with this sort of fistwork. Not so much from Alan, but from some of the posts here. ‘Lien Wan Kuen’ implies that the fists are linked and revolving continuously, More of a ‘stunning’ method for fast hands. If, like Alan, you are well versed enough to react to an aggressive fighter and continue to link up these fists you are doing something right :wink: but this isn’t ‘only’ Lien Wan because there is an element of receiving and giving pressure too. FME and learning we referred to this method as Seep Dai and this is exactly what Alan acheives here, continuing to express his Lien Wan fist work while receiving continuous attacks in different ways.

This is called Seep Dai Lien Wan Kuen.

So to be clear on the ‘power’ thing. If you are charging through the defense continuously, with pretty much no regard for what’s coming back atcha, this is called Lien Wan Chong Kuen. If you are stop/starting (but still quite continous) like in the clip you ar doing Seep Dai Lien Wan Kuen.

Both are simple ways of expressing the Wing Chun Fist, and both are present in Alans clip just not the only methods available to us, as (I think) Yoshi was also trying to explain.[/QUOTE]

35

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1159692]I think we may be talking a bit past each other or maybe about different things…allow me to clarify:
To repeat this part because it is crucial:
Boxers are taught to go in, hit hard and often and get out BECAUSE it is assumed that the other guys is gonna hit back and hit back hard.
WC does NOT advocate the “get in, hit and get out” strategy and this is quite plain in chain striking IMO.

I don’t recall any WC principle that advocates going in, hitting and getting out.
Do you?[/QUOTE]

can’t say i agree with this statement. Only boxers who have no power are trained in this way. Every boxing coach I’ve ever trained under emphasised the need to hurt the opponent and then stay on top of him with relentless combinations, the only caveat was taking care not to “gas” which is only relevant when wearing gloves as not many people can take more than a couple of well placed bare knuckle blows. There are plenty of top boxers who equally adopt a strategy of staying in the pocket because it suits their physical and mental attributes.
I’d agree though that the WC I learn / teach doesn’t advocate a get in and get out approach, as having done all of the hard work to close the distance and get into range (typically inside many strikers prefered range) the last thing I want to do is bounce back out again to have to do it all again.

36

[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1159874]can’t say i agree with this statement. Only boxers who have no power are trained in this way. Every boxing coach I’ve ever trained under emphasised the need to hurt the opponent and then stay on top of him with relentless combinations, the only caveat was taking care not to “gas” which is only relevant when wearing gloves as not many people can take more than a couple of well placed bare knuckle blows. There are plenty of top boxers who equally adopt a strategy of staying in the pocket because it suits their physical and mental attributes.
I’d agree though that the WC I learn / teach doesn’t advocate a get in and get out approach, as having done all of the hard work to close the distance and get into range (typically inside many strikers prefered range) the last thing I want to do is bounce back out again to have to do it all again.[/QUOTE]

You know that “get out” doesn’t mean “get back” or “move back” right?
It means hit and get to an area that you can’t get counter punched at, like Tyson, Leonard, Jones and many others did.

37

Up the pressure and this is chain punching;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgoP37DVNSs

Suki

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[QUOTE=Wu Wei Wu;1159885]Up the pressure and this is chain punching;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgoP37DVNSs

Suki[/QUOTE]

No this is a stronger opponent beating up a weaker opponent.

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[QUOTE=Wu Wei Wu;1159885]Up the pressure and this is chain punching;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgoP37DVNSs

Suki[/QUOTE]

You get an idea of why we spend so many hours conditioning a punching elbow. :smiley:

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[QUOTE=k gledhill;1159906]You get an idea of why we spend so many hours conditioning a punching elbow. :D[/QUOTE]

Don’t put all your eggs in the same basket.