# Aikido and Internal Arts **URL:** \ **Category:** Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts\ **Created:** [May 18, 2003, 8:06am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/aikido-and-internal-arts/20398 "2003-05-18T08:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Former\_castleva](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/former_castleva/32/225_2.png) [@Former\_castleva](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Former_castleva)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 10:13pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/aikido-and-internal-arts/20398/41 "2003-05-20T22:13:51Z")
"I would definitly put my money on a trained Taiji expert, but there are not so many out there. On a general level if you want to learn how to defend yourself in a fight in the street I would go for Aikido, because it is learned more quickly because of the hard on technique. " I would not recommend either for that purpose. If you ask most aikidoka,they would probably be honest enough to tell you that it takes time to learn. “Aikido(a very effective system) still uses physical technique and makes use of an apponants strength. A true Taiji master would not use strength to do an attack.” I do not know what this means,but when it comes to any technique,it will always be more or less physical. Yes,aikido does not use strength. “No one will really know what the outcome will be because a true master or sensei will never comprimise his apponents honour, even though he might win in a challenge.” A true alpha male (moron) would meet the challenge to gain power. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![StickyHands](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@StickyHands](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/StickyHands)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2003, 2:29am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/aikido-and-internal-arts/20398/42 "2003-05-21T02:29:50Z")
Then what you suppose takes shorter time to learn, easy and simple, and efficient fighting for street or tournaments, and of course self defense? ---
**Author:** ![ShaolinWood](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/shaolinwood/32/404_2.png) [@ShaolinWood](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/ShaolinWood)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2003, 6:58am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/aikido-and-internal-arts/20398/43 "2003-05-21T06:58:09Z")
Styles differ Yes, some styles like Aikido and karate are optimised for western training (Though there are still schools that train in the traditional way) so you will train to be able to fight quite soon and even do well. butt the difference in TAiji,it takes longer to learn, but the level of skill has so much more posibilities, you will never stop learning, this makes the difference. Think of it as learning to fix cars, and learning to invent cars, the latter takes longer to learn, but your limitless- only to your own determination. ---
**Author:** ![Vapour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a698b9/32.png) [@Vapour](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Vapour)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2003, 11:55am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/aikido-and-internal-arts/20398/44 "2003-05-21T11:55:40Z")
Shaolinwood, are you making your statement based on “experience”. Have you ever put decent training in aikido and taijiquan? If not, you are talking nonesence. ---
**Author:** ![Former\_castleva](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/former_castleva/32/225_2.png) [@Former\_castleva](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Former_castleva)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2003, 12:21pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/aikido-and-internal-arts/20398/45 "2003-05-21T12:21:05Z")
“Yes, some styles like Aikido and karate are optimised for western training (Though there are still schools that train in the traditional way) so you will train to be able to fight quite soon and even do well. butt the difference in TAiji,it takes longer to learn, but the level of skill has so much more posibilities, you will never stop learning, this makes the difference.” What do you mean by western training? I´m sensing some bias here,which is understandable but I find it very hard to see why aikido would not have a lifetime of training to offer (I have trained for a very short time) Extraordinary claims need extraordinary proof (as far as I have understood you) ---
**Author:** ![ShaolinWood](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/shaolinwood/32/404_2.png) [@ShaolinWood](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/ShaolinWood)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2003, 12:26pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/aikido-and-internal-arts/20398/46 "2003-05-21T12:26:16Z")
Probably should refrain… (Yes do speak from experience) What I’m trying to say is: That if you refer to training a style sothat you don’t need strength at all to execute a technique, it would take years of training (like stated by Taiji training). What I mean is, what ever style you choose, if you don’t put those extra many years in training, finding the principals of using spiral energy and correct rooting, you won’t reach the highest levels. And I know that you can reach it in most styles, but not if you just want to reach a level of winning a fight. I don’t mean to be dissrespectful to any other styles, one of my closest friends are a Aikido Sensei and we talk about this alot, TAiji and Aikido are actually very similar in technique. If you will learn proper technique and skill depends on your master and your ability to learn and train. Mostly depends on your determination and patience to take the long route. There is no shortcuts to proper Taiji. ---
**Author:** ![ShaolinWood](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/shaolinwood/32/404_2.png) [@ShaolinWood](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/ShaolinWood)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2003, 12:39pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/aikido-and-internal-arts/20398/47 "2003-05-21T12:39:11Z")
Sorry posted to wrong thread Missing the point It’s about finding your center of gravity, when you stand on one leg while doing something else you learn to get used to where your weight should be. And in the same time stretching very important muscles. When you don’t stretch your muscles in your body you might injure yourself doing movements like ground sparrow dragon or snake creeps down. Taiji is still a martial art you must remember that, in traditional training like Chen village Style, you actually train a fighting style. Don’t get stuck on “what’s internal and what’s external”. The problem with Chinese MA is people are too busy trying to make someone else’s style look bad that they miss the essense of the age old saying: “If you want more tea, first empty your cup.” Learn from other people, then deside if you want to add to your knowledge or not, but if you don’t want to see what someone else wants to teach you, how can he teach you? (I am happy with my Taiji style, I know my liniage is proper and I am very happy with the results.) Just getting something off my chest, let’s all get along and benefit Enjoy ---
**Author:** ![ShaolinWood](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/shaolinwood/32/404_2.png) [@ShaolinWood](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/ShaolinWood)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2003, 12:40pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/aikido-and-internal-arts/20398/48 "2003-05-21T12:40:58Z")
Sorry posted to wrong post Missing the point It’s about finding your center of gravity, when you stand on one leg while doing something else you learn to get used to where your weight should be. And in the same time stretching very important muscles. When you don’t stretch your muscles in your body you might injure yourself doing movements like ground sparrow dragon or snake creeps down. Taiji is still a martial art you must remember that, in traditional training like Chen village Style, you actually train a fighting style. Don’t get stuck on “what’s internal and what’s external”. The problem with Chinese MA is people are too busy trying to make someone else’s style look bad that they miss the essense of the age old saying: “If you want more tea, first empty your cup.” Learn from other people, then deside if you want to add to your knowledge or not, but if you don’t want to see what someone else wants to teach you, how can he teach you? (I am happy with my Taiji style, I know my liniage is proper and I am very happy with the results.) Just getting something off my chest, let’s all get along and benefit Enjoy ---
**Author:** ![Vapour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a698b9/32.png) [@Vapour](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Vapour)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2003, 1:04pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/aikido-and-internal-arts/20398/49 "2003-05-21T13:04:20Z")
Just put thing in perspective, here is a link about a judo kata. Itutu no kata (form of five). [http://www.judoinfo.com/kataitsu.htm](http://www.judoinfo.com/kataitsu.htm) ---
**Author:** ![shaolinboxer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19b73/32.png) [@shaolinboxer](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/shaolinboxer)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2003, 3:05pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/aikido-and-internal-arts/20398/50 "2003-05-21T15:05:00Z")
The interesting thing about this stupid story about Chiba which I have heard a thousand times is that Chiba is just a kid and Wang is one of the best internalists ever. I’m amazed Chiba didn’t get killed. I mean think about it, a kid going up against a seasoned internalist…ofcourse Chiba is goin to walk away with his nuts between his legs. Chiba has a cluster of loyal disciples here in Manhattan. I get the impression they are very “samurai” (aka living in a semi-masochistic fantasy world). Many of their students quit due to permament or severe injury. Terry Dobson (shoulder) and Donn Draeger (elbow) were both permanently injured by the old uchi deshi. Like it was some weird re-enactment of WWII. Japan wins! Horay! ---
**Author:** ![BAI\_HE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb9ed0/32.png) [@BAI\_HE](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/BAI_HE)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/aikido-and-internal-arts/20398/51 "2003-05-21T16:45:56Z")
This story? I will quote the story that Terry Dobson told me, which was corroborated at another time by Donn Draeger. I also heard Terry tell this story again in a group with Mitsugi Saotome present, who amidst laughter chimed in and agreed. I didn’t know that Ken Cottier was present but he was also part of the group. First, some context. WANG SHUJIN, for those who don’t know, was primarily a Pa Kua, Hsing I teacher, who also trained many years in YIQUAN. He was a massive man, fat over heavy muscle, in his prime, about 5’6" and about 260 lb, I’d guess. He also did TAIJIQUAN, the syncretic form created by Chen Pan Ling, which he did in a very different manner from Chen (this form is, these days, often called the Guo Shu form, the “national form” of Taiwan). Wang was the head of a neo-TAOIST sect, which strove to harmonize the major religions of the world. As always, there are debates about how strong he really was, I studied with him only two months when he was months away from death from melanoma. I witnessed him knock over a very muscular kyoshinkai champion with a side-step and belly blow, but that was a a controlled situation, not free-style. Still, really impressive power, despite his illness. For me, one of the most interesting measurements of his “power” was that when I travelled in Taiwan, every teacher who was talking big and trying to impress with his credentials claimed to have beaten Wang. Anyway, Wang originally came over to Japan in the '60’s, first to teach his son-in-law, who had married his adopted daughter. Among the first to study with him was Sato Kimbei. Sato, among koryu circles, was generally considered a joke. He collected scrolls and licenses. Otsubo sensei, of the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, told in a very public forum, of Sato apporoaching him, asking how long it would take to get a menkyo kaiden and when Otsubo was noncommittal, trying to bargain with him. Otsubo allowed him to train with him and w/in two months, Sato was nowhere to be found, but years later, he was claiming licensure in the school. Anyway, Sato hooked up with Wang for some years, and this did give him legitimate claim to being one of the “pioneers” of Japanese TAIJIQUAN. Wang used to ask a former student of Sato’s to demonstrate what Sato taught, and he and his son-in-law would pick it apart, laughing and asking him to repeat cerain moves over and over. I also happened to be present at a workshop when the head of the Bejing wushu society, (forgot his name - the guy who put together the 48 movement syncretic TAIJIQUAN form) and another practitioner, who has won the Yang TAIJIQUAN competition several years running and Sato came up and told them that they weren’t allowed to teach because they hadn’t asked his permission, and they looked at him like you look at a deranged street person asking to borrow your briefcase, and walked away shaking their heads. Sato did nothing, and left with his wife shortly after. Sato is currently claimed as a senior infuence on the Genbukan and Tanemura - - -Oh well. Wang started teaching in the grounds of Meiji shrine, and somewhere along the line a group of non-Japanese around Donn Draeger started training with him. Draeger learned some pa-kua, Wang would also show some Hsing I, but mostly he taught TAIJIQUAN. Among this group was Terry Dobson, who was a live-in student of Morihei Ueshiba of aikido. Terry’s direct senior was Chiba. Wang was doing demos in Japanese martial arts demonstrations and as Ken Cottier put it, “here you’d have all these startched Japanese in their crisp kiekko gi and their crisp snappy movements and then out would come this fat Chinaman in grey flannel slacks and suspenders and he’d start doing impossible slow TAIJIQUAN and he’d turn around and this ass as big as the moon would waft across the stage and then he’d challenge all comers to have a go at him and the young karate boys would be rabid and he’d let them punch his stomach or kick him in the groin and he’d just laugh it off but heaven help you if you tried to punch his head. He made it clear that that was out of bounds, and if you broke the rules, then he’d become, shall we say, active.” Terry stated to me, (I’m quoting as best as I can remember) “the uchi-deshi at honbu, particularly Chiba, started giving me a raft of \*\*\*\* that I was being disloyal to O-sensei by studying with Wang, and I asked O-sensei, and he said, ‘sure, do what you want’ but they wouldn’t let up so I said, “why don’t you come and check him out for yourself.” So Draeger and me took Chiba, Saotome and Tamura. Well, we walked in, and Wang scopes out Chiba right away, like he knows who has the attitude here, takes one look, and says, ‘come here boy.’ Seriously, Wang’s over sixty, paid lots of dues, is a religious leader and all, and here comes these punks, as far as he’s concerned, in their twenties, copping an attitude. So Wang lets Chiba punch him in the stomach. Nothing. Chiba tries again. Nothing. Well, now Chiba loses his temper, half turns away, and then tries to sucker punch him, thinking it’s timing. This time Wang sucks the fist into his belly and then drops, he gives it back, Chiba’s arm goes shooting back behind his ear, and he’s shaking his wrist in pain. Wang then let Chiba kick him in the groin. Nothing. So Chiba loses it, grabs Wang’s wrist and puts a nikkyo or kote-gaeshi on it, some wrist lock. I don’t know what Wang did, it was too fast, but Chiba slams on the floor and Wang’s doing something to him with one hand and he’s screaming in pain. Finally Wang lets him up and says, “You’ve got a little chi, why don’t you come back when you acquire more?” Then he turns to Tamura and Saotome, who were standing there with their backs against the wall, and says, “you want to try.” They both shake their heads and we all went home. They never gave me \*\*\*\* about Wang again. . . . Far as I’m concerned, Chiba lost his chance at salvation right there. He should have quit everything and sat at Wang’s feet.” The story that Dobson tells is quite congruent with my own experience with Chiba. When he first returned to Japan in 1976, I think it was, I took his classes for several months. For whatever it is worth, I was the first person he threw in the first class he taught. It’s relevant for this reasib. He comes in the room, substituting for Tada, and picks the biggest guy in the room - me. It’s like he wants to make an initial impression on everyone. First throw is shihonage, and he very deliberately bridged my elbow over his shoulder and tries to snap it. No ambiguity at all. Not a mistake. He was deliberately trying to hurt me. I had previously been warned about him and was in the air the moment the throw started, yet the elbow did momentarity slip out of the socket and back in with an audible click. I hit the ground and came back up for the next move (jeez, I was a loyal puppy in those days) and Chiba got the same look on his face that you see when someone’s slinking out of the porno shop with a back of goodies under his arm, and then he sees I’m not on the ground, or nursing the arm, and he starts in surprise, like he’s been caught at something dirty, and then covers it up. Never tried to hurt me again, seemed to like me after that like I passed some sick test - lest some loyal students think I’m reading too much into this, I deal with psychopaths on a daily basis for a living, and I know that look. So I’m inclined to believe Dobson and Draeger over Chiba’s interview. ---
**Author:** ![No\_Know](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/no_know/32/228_2.png) [@No\_Know](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/No_Know)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2003, 6:52pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/aikido-and-internal-arts/20398/52 "2003-05-21T18:52:26Z")
“I haven’t studied Kung Fu nearly as long as Ninjitsu, but I do see alot of similarities in the way the two styles deal with punches/kicks/locks. The theories and training differ, but the outcome is the same.” Becca indicated this. Aikido seems to require force to work against the opponent-ish. Taijiquan beats Aikido, ideally. Taijiquan has shift weight after stand~. Shifting weight principle can win many a fight. Aikido learns kneeling and to roll first-ish. As an aside, Taijitsu (ninjitsu fighiting-moving) does rolls first in at least some instances perhaps. Ninja body movement (Nbm) works from avoiding Japanese Warrior caste sword (katana (long curved blade)) strikes/cuts. There was a famous person describded with if you met~ with him it was like wrestling an empty jacket. Aikido is perhaps near useless when opponent does basically not use force. Punches have angles from closer ranges than Samurai cuts. Less room to work and shorter reaction space. Aikido used against a lack of force perhaps is Juijitsu-ish. ---
**Author:** ![shaolinboxer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19b73/32.png) [@shaolinboxer](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/shaolinboxer)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2003, 8:28pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/aikido-and-internal-arts/20398/53 "2003-05-21T20:28:38Z")
That story. Ofcourse, the common version is the “Chiba snaps wrist then receives push” version. Really, I don’t know Chiba Sensei, nor any of his current students. Also, I never got to meet Dobson Sensei, but I have read his work and many writings about him (the story told by Ellis Amdur in “Dueling with O’Senei” is particularly touching and insightful). My point was only that 1) the tales of injury do not surprise me and 2) old Wang SHOULD have whipped Chiba since he had many years more experience. That version of the story is very interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Vapour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a698b9/32.png) [@Vapour](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Vapour)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 6:46am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/aikido-and-internal-arts/20398/54 "2003-05-22T06:46:39Z")
Is this my imagination or do we tend to find the biggest ego maniac in so called Internal Martial Arts? In internal arts, you have a “master”, then somewhere in the middle you have “sensei” (teaher), then when I do judo, I get “instructor” or “coach” who, after the lesson, go out and drink with us, not to mention that we all call each other with first name. ---
**Author:** ![ShaolinWood](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/shaolinwood/32/404_2.png) [@ShaolinWood](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/ShaolinWood)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 7:01am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/aikido-and-internal-arts/20398/55 "2003-05-22T07:01:36Z")
I do like Aikido, don’t get me wrong Of all the Japanese styles(Now this is purely personal preferance and doesn’t mean any disrespect to any style/person) my favaroute is propably Aikido, for me it uses very similar technique (Involving locks and chin na) though with some elements I disagree (purely because I’m taught differently propably) But If you like what you do(your style) do research, use forums like these to find out what other people in other styles do and believe, then test the principals in your own, We can always benefit from advice! ---
**Author:** ![Becca](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/becca/32/410_2.png) [@Becca](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Becca)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 7:13am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/aikido-and-internal-arts/20398/56 "2003-05-22T07:13:57Z")
“Aikido is perhaps near useless when opponent does basically not use force.” I agree. And without force, it is useless. I am allowed to use it in sparring at my kwoon, but as I study an internal art, I get more use from the footwork and evasions than I do from throw and locks. ---
**Author:** ![Vapour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a698b9/32.png) [@Vapour](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Vapour)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 7:23am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/aikido-and-internal-arts/20398/57 "2003-05-22T07:23:04Z")
As of aikido, I do feel that some people are making assesement of the arts without much of experience. Especially about the comment that aikido use force to apply technique. This comment is rather ignorant of the function of aikido kata training. In aikido kata training, tori will make pre-aranged attack which uke counter it by using an aikido technique. Few comments about use of force in aikido is based on the perception that it is uke who is learning technique, IMO. The main concept stressed in aikido kata practice is uke “following” tori’s technique. This is because any aikido technique can be countered if one _follow_. Uke by cooperating with tori is not just facilitating execution of technique. He is at the same time, learning to counter/defeat such technique. When you are being tori, you learn “technique”. When you are uke, you are learning aikido. Observation that aikido use force is based on the idea that it is uke who is doing aikido. In fact, reverse is true. Plus aikido’s stress use of power from hara (abdominal) or tanden. Do you think taijiquan is not soft because it use fajing? Aikido technique can be applied aggressively if one adhere to aikdo principle. Typical example is Shomenuchi Irimi Ikkyo. ---
**Author:** ![ShaolinWood](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/shaolinwood/32/404_2.png) [@ShaolinWood](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/ShaolinWood)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 7:30am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/aikido-and-internal-arts/20398/58 "2003-05-22T07:30:28Z")
Agree Vapour Yes, I Totally agree that Aikido aims to be “soft” like Taiji also. My master once told me:“It doesn’t matter what road you take, being internal, external, you start hard, end soft, or start soft end hard.” Meaning that you need both Yin and Yang (Being all daoist now) to fully master a system. This doesn’t mean that if you do taiji you will end up doing WWF slams and bear hugs, this is the principal of Fajing, coiling energy starting of with soft spring action, and turning hard for the split second of impact then returning to yin again. ---
**Author:** ![Vapour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a698b9/32.png) [@Vapour](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Vapour)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 7:48am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/aikido-and-internal-arts/20398/59 "2003-05-22T07:48:20Z")
Let me my thought on the concept of “floating” in aikido. A modern taijiquan master, Zheng Man Qing, when he was about middle age, stressed dozen “check list” which was given to him by Yang Cheng Fu. In later year, he stressed only three. “Swallow the heavens chi”, “tap the earth’s strength” and “prolong life through softness”. I was recently told that at the latter part of his life, he particular stressed “head suspended from ni-wan point” because if your head is suspended from ni-wann point (shen being raised, may be), your weight naturally fall into earth so the second check list become redundant. This is also the exact point which was stressed in aikido. That is to raise tanden and relax. I also stated that if you float, principle of being single weighted can manifest itself when being attacked. I do beleive that Morihei left what he considered it to be the core of martial principle(s) which practioners of aikido can discover at various level of aikido practice. While back, I attacked a 6th dan with Shomenuchi and he countered it by Irimi Ikkyo. When I received his technique, I felt this strange rush of energy from his ikkyo that I just couldn’t think I could resist his ikkyo. With lower dan grade, I could feel them using some degree of brute force so even though I can’t stop their technique, I feel that I can resist it somehow. More suprising thing is that not all 6th dan give me this rush. It kinda confirmed me something I read it while back that the highest grade is, in fact, 3rd dan (or 5th dan? I can’t remember) Enough ranting, I think I need to eat my break fast. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Becca](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/becca/32/410_2.png) [@Becca](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Becca)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 7:52am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/aikido-and-internal-arts/20398/60 "2003-05-22T07:52:33Z")
Yes, Vapor, but if they go at it with the intensity of limp spinach, you must use force generated by YOUR actions to accomplish the throw. And that’s run-of-the-mill grappling. Aikido uses these concepts, as do most arts, but what makes Aikdo special is the underlying principals, such as chin na. [Previous page](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/aikido-and-internal-arts/20398.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/aikido-and-internal-arts/20398.md?page=4)