so, I am looking through some web pages for ultimate fighting, nhb style competitions, and here is the conclusion I came to. Now, mind you, I am not saying that it is good or bad, lets just say I am calling it different.
Alot of people want to point at that style of ring fighting as effective combat fighting, and in a sense it is. Here is how I see it though, you dont really have to be trained in a ‘system’ to win these matches, or in real life. If you lift some weights regularly for strength, learn some basic fighting techniques, and then spend a whole lot of time increasing your body constitution, such as sparring, or just standing around having people hit you alot. you can win these things.
What they should call them are tough man tourneys. thats what these things really are. Those guys learn some things, some styles of fighting and that is fine, I am not saying they have no skill, what I am saying is that, if you walk ou there, the toughest guy in the room, you will most likely win.
now, you can take that how you like, to me, thats an effective way of training as any other. If I spend tons of time learning how to strike and kick and block, until it becomes effective for me, so be it, taht works. If I stand around letting people punch, pull or claw at me until I get tough as nails, well that can work too.
You’re completely missing it Red5Angel.
How about Judo? Let’s talk about that for a second.
Judo is an international combat sport that is VERY highly developed technically.
When you reach the point at which increases in your technique level are measured in baby steps, you have attained an elite level of understanding.
The problem? EVERYBODY at the international level HAS that elite level of understanding.
What remains then, is to improve the instrument through which you express your Judo.
Elite athletes train so hard because they have to to win. They are injured almost constantly. Rhadi tells me the difference between winning and losing at the elite level frequently depends on who has fewer injuries. Even at my level, far below the international scene, I can believe it.
Rhadi is a monster
I didnt miss it at all, I didnt mention Judo in my post. That is a system and a style, therefore I assume that winning a match in Judo, in a Judo tourney, actually recquires you use judo techniques?I am not necessarily talking about grappling matches here, although real combat, ultimate fighting what have yous tend to concentrate on that.
Red,
Actually, they don’t. It’s just that I tend to talk about what I know, and I know about grappling. I don’t know about striking much, so I don’t talk about it to any great length.
For the record, you can enter a Judo tournament and use wrestling techniques seldom seen in Judo and win.
And you’ve still missed it.
Let me try and think of a good example…
Ah, I’ve got it. Mark Coleman and Mo Smith. Both elite combat athletes. Both have a high level of skill. Mo was able to deal with (some) of the takedowns, and escape (some) of the bottom positions.
Guess what happenned? Mark Coleman got tired, and dropped his hands. Mo kicked him in the head and knocked him out.
Elite level athletes MUST be in good shape to win… and while you are correct in saying that conditioning is key, it is key only in so far as you have the technique to back it up.
At the elite level, you are looking at roughly equal levels of technique… now we must move into the conditioning realm to gain a competitive edge.
Though i can see where your coming from this is not the case. Yes these guys train to get hit but that’s cause it’s part of the sport. But every match you watch there is technique there. It’s just when you get evenly matched oppenents it omes down to cardio. Once you get a chance to train a little for MMA the respect for the chess game going on will be a little easier to understand. But when all else fails just have fun training.
Brad,
You’re right. I forgot about that.
MMA and grappling events share one thing in common–they require an educated audience to appreciate it.
The occasional high amp throw is nice to see, but the details of the Judo are lost on an untrained audience… where as the avoidance and delivery of punches is obvious to the untrained eye in boxing.
Same with MMA, really. Need to know what you are watching to appreciate it.
red5angel. Tell your theory to Royce Gracie. He is by no mean tuff. In fact he has a history of being easily injured by strikes and he has zero strength. But somehow he was able to defeat people in the UFC that outweighed him by 50-80 pounds and he defeated Dan Severn a gold medal olympic wrestler who had an 80 pound wieght advantage. He defeated Ken Shamrock who had a 50 pound wieght advantage in UFC #1.
Royce is a little skinny man. I’m sure your theory applies to the little skinny weak people too?
Ok, you guys have convinced me, just wanted to hear it from some people who knew about it. I dont follow them, so I was just seeking some information.
Really, if it is more about technique then great! I am by no means claiming that good kung fu could beat them, I know that if I came across most of these guys in the streets, I would get killed, no if ands or buts!
www.bjj.org/images/royce-delucia.jpg
Here’s an example of technique. I guess you need no skill or technique to do a move like this.
What happens when the other guys is bigger, tougher?
By that standard there is no need to fight. We can just pull out a scale and a tape measure. The heaviest, bigger guy will win. Which is actually a true statement, size does matter … unless you know something.
There is a lot to be said about toughness. Years training does not = skill. I know plenty of poeple who have trained for 10years+, but, plane and simple, they are little bit(hes. Sorry, but the word fits. YToughness counts for something, but unless you are bench pressing with your throat, it will not make you imperivious to that one, well timed strike.
good point Evolution.
I’m glad to see instead of bashing you want to gain some knowlegde. And hey knowing is half the battle!!
Ralek, I agree with you, that is a good techique, great technique, it works, workes well … in that venue.
My only problem with that is this: If that was on the street, what prevents the guy with the broken arm, what prevents his friend from implanting a Nike symbol on your forehean while you are on your back on the ground? That is why I do not like going to the ground. I grew up in Newark, sneen people get mad messed up on the ground. It is a place that you should not go to by will, only by necessity. When training, I always think about having to change, to adjust to a change, an added attacker, a weapon. Lying on the ground is too committed for me. But at least we are discussing now.
Two questions. 1. What if the guy you get into a fight with is a wrestler unknown to you and he takes you down before you get your strike off? How do you react when some gets you in a clinch? (standing tie up) I can understand your point evolution but in the same as you saying about the well timed strike what of a well timed shot. The average arm lenght i’m guessing is 2 to 3 ft the average distance for a long clean shot is about 15 ft. Going to the ground sometimes is not by choice. Yes i would rather in the street stay on my feet but i know sometimes it won’t go how i want it to. And also sometimes size matters. I’ve lost to people my own weight but i’ve also tapped people who weight 275 and i weigh 135. It’s not what you know it’s how smart you use it.
I hear this alot…I don’t want to go to the ground in a fight…shoot I don’t even want to fight!!! LOL…I just want to hook up with many girls and die…but the truth is fight exist and will happen. The problem is hitting someone and scoring a KO is difficult against someone whose clinching or tackling you…U MUST LEARN TO SPRAWL and DEFEND AGAINST TAKEDOWN…do not rely on INTERCEPTION( punching or kneeing a guy while he’s in the motion )…they are very very very difficult to execute!
Hey, I agree with you guys, soemtimes you have to go down … BUT WITH ME, its never by choice.
I actually new an All State wrestler when I was about 17 or 18 in NJ. I always heard he was tough, so gave a wide birth becaue he whent to another school, and all that kid drama. We wound up getting into a fight, he heard the same about me and I guess it was inevitable.
He came high and shot low. I never heard of a Sprawl (and actually was told that’s what I did here when recalling this account before) but pulled it off because of principles.
His energy was coming in hard low. I gave my energy out and up. I landed ontop of him dropping a good elbow to his back and then kick his head. His head hit the counter, there was blood.
The fool tried to back up to do something and his face repeatedly hit my knee. The fight was broken up, it wasn’t a good night for him.
I know this was only one account, and I did feel lucky abou the results. But principles are principles on, above or below the ground. I train to deal with force: forward, down, rounded, up. I feel when you train that way all attacks are just a manifestiation of that force.
Also, I feel many MA are to concerned with blocking the guy are pukling off some “technique” when a grappler does gis thing because they don’t have fight experince. I fight my fight. You extend to close that gap by golly you’re going to get hit.
I would love nothing more that to have someone grab me, that’s one less weapon being used. Its like putting your gun back in the holster.
But, being the internet, talk is talk. My point, yea, sometimes it goes to the floor. I am fearful when that happens and fight like a mad man, not a good place to be. I’ve seen poeple get bats and blades on and in their back while rolling around.
Think about it. You are pretty exposed to further attack down there no matter how good you are, you can’t change to deal with another attacker when you are so wrapped and commited to one already.
Ba Gua, any complete system, should have ground fighting, but to me it about putting people down or controling them as a weapon or shield, not going down with them.
My personal opinion.
Legend, you have a good point on the takedowns, they are hard to combat. Fortunately I have a wrestling friend who is going to be working with me this summer so I can start applying my techniques to figure that all out!Really, alot of this is what ifs, and that is the problem. What if he tackles me? What if I am fast enough to back out? What if he is bigger then me, what if I am…
Personally fo rthe ground fighting game I would rather control the fight, if I can, but then again there is another of those ifs…
So if your standing you can’t get stabbed or hit with a bat ?
Of course you can, but you certainly have more options. I think you do see that, that you can see it coming and adjust, even run away if you must (three guys with bats and knives). I think you are perhaps trying to play Devil’s advovate?