10 years of training

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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In an earlier thread I was trying to start a dialog about what you should expect from a 10 year martial arts practitioner. Let’s see if I can put this in more politically correct terms:

Should a kung fu practitioner with 10 years experience be able to beat someone with no experience, assuming he isn’t outweighed by more than 30 pounds or so? I know a variety of systems in which there would be no contest. Put someone with no training against a boxer, Muay Thai fighter, BJJ’er, Judoka, or wrestler with 10 years training and he will be totally, absolutely, and completely dominated even if the session is just a friendly, easy one. After the session is over there will be no question at all about who is better. It would be next to impossible for someone to complete 10 years of training in any of the above systems and not be able to dominate someone with no experience. My question is this, would you expect the same from a kung fu practitioner, or are the standards different?

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if he trained properly, after 10 years, he should be awoken in the internal arts (prividing this is TCM) otherwise, I wouldnt know.

I think after 10 years, a persons instinct to fight becomes very disciplined, and is more concerned with internal workings than fighting ability. Of course, further developments strengthens both :slight_smile:

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> Put someone with no training against a boxer, Muay Thai fighter, BJJ‚ Judoka, or wrestler with 10 years training
and he will be totally, absolutely, and completely dominated even if the session is just a friendly, easy one. [/quote]

Your a nalogy is skewed and quite unrealistic. A friendly match is just that, friendly. Exchanging a few blows back and forth does not warrent a fight. If this were more serious then ST00 would dominate.

You’re really into this whole “domination’ and submission” thing aren’t you.? Kinky devil.

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com
0—n

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Ugh let’s leave those kinda fetishes out of this.

While I very much agree that a person trained for 10 years in one of those systems (especially BJJ …booo hiss!! :wink: ) can handle himself easily against an “untrained” fighter, I do have to say from mixing it up from strong and tough fighters that just because someone is not trained in a martial art does NOT mean he does not have experience fighting. Fighting experience goes along way, and in my honest opinion, if a 10 year BJJ guy (who only rolls in the dojo) fights an “untrained” fighter who has years and years of real fighting experience (ground included here guys) it might be a surprise for the BJJ man.
I’m not saying he wouldn’t win, but if you don’t consider “streetfighting” a martial art you could be in for a rude awakening. Just ask any of Tank Abbot’s opponents. :slight_smile: Including Hugo Duarte.

Ryu

"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage.

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Jesus, Abel just shut up and get off knife’s back already! Your posts are getting $#^%$ annoying.

And please, don’t even try to accuse me of being knifefighter.

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The maestro is correct

Knifefighter-

haven’t we danced this dance before? The traditional chinese arts (and the okinawan ones that developed from them)are traditions of civil self defense. That is how they were developed, that is how they have been trained since then with some very basic adjustments. By and large, they were not developed to negotiate an opponent with similar training and or skill in a combative discipline. Yet you want us to compare these arts with arts such as thai boxing, boxing, BJJ etc that have a long history of development in mutual proving rounds. In these systems, the practitioners know they are going to be expected to compete at some stage against someone who has also been training hard. The traditional striking arts did not feature this mentality which is why the traditional training rarely reflects this.

That’s not to say a traditionalist couldn’t look after himself if need be - he should be more than capabable because that is what he has trained to do.

To answer your question, you speak of a friendly training situation. How is a self defense orientation going to be of any assistance in this environment? Sure - as a kung fu person, you could aim strikes at the throat or joints or whatever, but why would you if the goal is a friendly exchange? Sifu Abel is right - a friendly exchange is not a life threatening situation. Basing your opinion of the efficacy of an art on a situation that has little to do with the existence of the art in the first place is not going to tell you much. The competitively trained martial artists - the BJJ and judo players, the boxers, the ones who do practice friendly and controlled exchanges of their entire curriculum on a regular basis against equally skilled people are going to be better able to accommodate your untrained friend than the traditionalist.

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My opinion is that if Kung Fu is any good, then after 10 years yes the kung fu practicioner should be able to annihilate the average joe.

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“Put someone with no training against a boxer, Muay Thai fighter, BJJ’er, Judoka, or wrestler with 10 years training and he will be totally, absolutely, and completely dominated even if the session is just a friendly, easy one.”

Gotta be careful making statements like these. This is probably true 90% of the time, but there’s that extra fluke 10% when it’s not.

That said, it depends on the training. If the kung fu guy does as much “live” training as the boxer/thai boxer/jiu jitsu guy/whatever, then yes, it should be the same way, all other things being equal.

Things that could possibly be not equal are the quality of the instruction, the natural talent and learning ability of the student, and so on.

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jimbob,

If the arts you collectively paint with your broad descriptive brush cannot negotiate a trained opponent then, from a fighting standpoint, what’s the point of learning it?

To echo a sentiment Merryprankster stated a long time ago: I want to know what works against other skilled fighters. Anything else is window dressing, and IMAO not worth the time and effort.

It would be next to impossible for someone to complete 10 years of training in any of the above systems and not be able to dominate someone with no experience.

If you can’t dominate an untrained person after 10 years under your belt in ANY system, then said system hasn’t done you much good as far as fighting is concerned.

My question is this, would you expect the same from a kung fu practitioner, or are the standards different?

Not in my eyes they aren’t.

My opinion is that if Kung Fu is any good, then after 10 years yes the kung fu practicioner should be able to annihilate the average joe.

And my opinion is that if kung fu is any good you should be able to negotiate more than just the average Joe Schmidlap Street Thug.

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There are a LOT of badasses out there who have never had more than a few “meetings” with any strict fighting discipline before.

A lot of it has to do with instinct.

Most of the time they have acquired this instinct through hard-earned experiances.

They know to keep it simple, they are not squeamish, they have learned to be aware, to take advantage of those weapons of opportunity around them, to be freakin nasty and act according.

No one style can teach this attitude.

A lean and strong BJJ player or Thai Boxer may be a badass mofo in a consent based match but the type of people I am talking about do not walk into consent based video game fights unless they have a trick or two up there sleeves, or in their case a Hells Belle’s Bowie knife hidden behind a knee or ice pick held in reverse grip for those close quarter stabbing situations.

Oh and lets not forget the aftermentioned stompings and curbies.

Be afraid of beer bellies, be very afraid.

Regards

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I didn’t read the whole thread. Probably read it later.

But in response to knifefighter’s question: Yes, no contest. If someone with 10 years of training can’t absolutely dominate someone who is untrained (presuming especially the untrained individual is not an avid streetfighter and of relatively comparable physical aspect), then there is something seriously, SERIOUSLY wrong with their training.

Seriously wrong.

Yes, even if it’s a friendly little playfull encounter.

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knifefighter and grafh1 are correct

“You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting”
Spinning Backfist

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Ok, ok… I’m suckered in, I’ll read the thread now.

I’m not sure what prana is talking about. Yes, there is absolutely “other stuff” in the internal martial arts. However, the internal martial arts are still MARTIAL ARTS (truly remarkable ones, imho), and if you haven’t attained martial proficiency in them, I highly doubt you’ve gotten very far in any of their other aspects.

I don’t know what Abel is talking about either. I sometimes “play” with my untrained friends and sometimes they win. But I’m not trying to win. I think one of the unspoken conditions of KF’s premise is that you are trying to win (within the “rules” of the encounter). In which case, no matter how friendly it is, someone with 10 years shouldn’t have any problems at all. Seriously people… 10 years…

Ryu and BlackJack’s point is well taken. I agree. There are some great “untrained” streetfighters out there. But I think another unspoken assumption in KF’s question was that the untrained guy wasn’t one of these.

I couldn’t follow jimbob’s post. Was he saying yes or no to the question?

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Problem with friendly matches is that there friendly. Problem with guys with little contact experience having friendly matches is that they always have the misconception that things would’ve been different if it wasn’t a friendly match. All in all I agree with Watchman and for the most part with Knifefighter. There is always a chance that you’ll get your ass handed to you, but some martial arts because of the ingrained way they are trained better your odds and that is all you can hope for.-ED

“Ninjas are not dangerous. They are more afraid of you than you are of them.” --The Tick

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A kf with 10 years of experience should be able to kick the average persons ass, no doubt about it. Unless this average one is a experienced street fighter, a genius, a ******* lucky bastard, or he was lieing (did i spell it right?) and actually trains. But that is, if its a fight, nothing friendly. ST vs Ralek seems to be a sparring match.

BTW, ShaolinTiger trains trad kf and san shou too. In recent matches it has been proven that san shou is in the same level as Muay Thai in the rings. So if you say that a MT guy with 10 years of training would kick ass, then you can say the same about San Shou.

“You will never need to feel weak, helpless, indecisive, not fascinating or ashamed of your genital dimensions. GOOD-BYE Humiliation. Bullies, Karate Experts, Boxing Champions, traffic wardens will melt to pulp as you master every situation.”
Master Deltoo
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Stadium/2477/

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>knifefighter and grafh1 are correct[/quote]

Thanks Tape Lord :smiley:

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De Do Do Do De Da Da Da

Modern day gung fu practitioners don’t come close to the ones from the past who actually had to use their skills consistently to stay alive.

People who put down gung fu ignore almost 2,000 years of real-life testing just because Royce Gracie happened to be successful in a venue which BJJ is pretty much designed for.

“Their logic ties me up and rapes me” - Police

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Ok, I’m probably the reason why the other thread was locked. So I will play nice for those mofos powers that be.

Yes, a 10 year practioner of any art should make that person be able to easily handle an untrained fighter…even to handle a trained fighter.

10 years is a looooong time. If you aren’t a badass by then, is it the fault of the martial artist? Maybe… It may be that there was no actual combat in this kwoon, dojo or studio… just more chi sau, light sparring, one step, two step practicing. Then how can you blame the martial artist? It’s the fault of the training-- and maybe the traditional training of Kung Fu is at fault… actually I DO think it’s at fault.

Kung Fu has many principles of actual fighting… just like Muy Thai, boxing etc… but where they lost it is the 2000 years of BS mysticism that goes along with it. Thus, CMAs have mostly become ineffective in real life situations.

True, a BJJ practioner who only rolls in the studio may not be totally prepared for an actual combat situation, BUT he/she would be much more prepared than your average Kung Fu joe who does Kung Fu as a hobby.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>People who put down gung fu ignore almost 2,000 years of real-life testing just because Royce Gracie happened to be successful in a venue which BJJ is pretty much designed for.[/quote]

People have used swords for longer than that and it was VERY effective…how come no one goes to war with one anymore?

Hey Abel, I’m NOT knifefighter… I’m much better looking. :smiley:

And for the record, I’m not a BJJ advocate either. Just ask Ginsuedog… I think many BJJ practitioners are actually pssies too. At least Kung Fu has the intelligentsia of Pssies. :smiley:

[This message was edited by KungFoolz on 10-08-01 at 10:39 PM.]

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Hard to say. Maybe in 50 years the kung fu practioner will be able to win. Maybe not.

  • Nexus
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De Do Do Do De Da Da Da Deux

My quote:

People who put down gung fu ignore almost 2,000 years of real-life testing just because Royce Gracie happened to be successful in a venue which BJJ is pretty much designed for.

Knifefighter quote:
People have used swords for longer than that and it was VERY effective…how come no one goes to war with one anymore?

Well, probably because it’s against the law to carry them around for one thing.

In a fight between an unarmed MA (KF, MT, BJJ) and someone with a sword my money is on the guy with the sharpened steel.