Power generation in Bow Stance

[Water Dragon]

I got this one on the main board as well, in case your interested in the discussion:

This is for the folks who deliver power shots out of a bow stance. Do you drive off of your heel, or the ball of your foot?

Me, I think the "classic" way torquing out of the heel gives better stability but it doesn't allow you to fully commit to your punches. For me, torquing out of the ball of the foot allows full commitment, sends the force into my kua more efficiently, and gives more of a spiral in the momentum.

Looking forward to your thoughts/opinions.

[Water Dragon]

Some guy on the main board just said something about torquing out of the whole back foot. Is this even anatomically possible?

[taijiquan_student]

Maybe I don't understand your question, but here's an answer anyway.
If I'm issuing power from a bow stance, I like to spring up from the front leg rather than using the back one. Of course there probably is some element of pushing up off the back leg, but I'm not putting any intent into it. Hope this is kind of what you're looking for.

[Fu-Pow]

As far as I know Taiji doesn't really have a real "bow stance." That is, there is a big difference between a Shaolin style bow stance and a Taiji "bow-like" stance. My teacher corrected my stance a couple of times and said something about "crossing the hip."

As to the previous question I push with the heel/whole foot then rotate on the ball of the foot. (When doing my CLF). My front foot I move from the heel to whole foot as I turn.

Playing with it, it feels like most of my 'pushing' is through the heel (well, the point just on the front side of it), however there's a definite feeling of connection to the ground at two points across the pad of the foot (like WCCChen's three nails???). I don't know if taijiquan trains like baguazhang to cultivate the idea of gentle gripping of the ground with the foot, but I believe this is where it comes from. If you're interested and don't do this now, try getting the idea of the pads of the feet stretching apart and out, pushing the toes out and down (like making a dragon palm with your feet), and the image of them gripping down to the ground when you step, like claws, or 'locking/latching on' mechanically if that works better for you. It's not alot of pressure (if you use too much, you quickly find your balance disrupted); very subtle. I think playing with this idea in all aspects of training may be what has given me the sense of connection along the pad, but all this is speculation! Good luck.

[EARTH DRAGON]

A different understanding I guess but our bow stance in mantis is the stance you end up in! not how you execute a punch from. Same as a horse you never throw a punch from a horse you end up in it after you have done a technique so how can you talk about power shots from a bow , unless of caorse your talikng about you warm up punches for class. Please explain.

[Daredevil]

I tend to agree with ED. The way we do it in Baji... Tho' you can sometimes punch from a horse, ending in a bow-arrow stance and vice versa, but basically you don't punch standing in one of these stances.

The kua or waist area and the turning is foremost in creating the power. Of course, thinking about it, you couldn't do that without your legs on the ground (duh - hehheh). When punching into a horse stance, I do push off the ball of the foot, following my shrifu's example. When punching into a bow-arrow stance, the turnng happens on the ball of the foot, so its the same there.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Water, I guess I am this guy hehehehehe
Anyway, to give precisions to my laconic answer in the main board:
First, the heel is directly in the alignment of the leg, so pushing off it gives the least amount of energy dispersion. For example from a bow stance if you push from the ball of the foot, part of the energy going up the thigh will be dispersed by the Achille tendon and the back of the calf, giving you a small bouncing sensation...I also replied this because every gong fu exponent I was/am taught by made it clear to me that CMA deeply insist on rooting (hence the heel), and that twisting should always be done on the heel (except for a few selected techniques where you can only possibly turn on the ball of the foot). Once again, twisting on the ball implies that you raise your heel slightly, hence you lose the connection and part of the force will be dissipated by your body's natural elastic structure, be they muscles or tendons.
When I meant pushing with the whole foot, I also meant that root factor: if your technique and posture is good, then your whole foot should be planted and rooted, not just the heel while the rest of the foot lays weightless.
It follows the good old principle of action/reaction: when you give a push from the rear leg (generally by firing the thigh muscles), the same equal amount of energy is injected in the ground, since it is your base (try punching from the back leg in a loooooong gong bu on ice, you imagine the stuff, right?). Still following this principle, the ground sends back the force through your leg, which is what enables you to push from the foot (if the ground was collapsing under your foot, you couldn't push off it, since your thigh energy would be anihilated, right?). So all of this to say that what I meant by the whole foot is simply that your foot has to be perfectly planted and rooted so that you can benefit to the maximum from the action/reaction stuff happening when your thigh pushes the leg down from your root.
this principle is not only used when you push down, I have seen my bagua sifu drop his weight down into his legs to use the ground's rebounding force to issue power at the tip of his hand...minimum amount of strenght used (you just let gravity do what it does best, that is pull you down), and with the right timing and technique (internal skills?), you let the rebounding power from the ground travel through your body all the way to the hand to issue the strike...
Hope my views on this are clearer now

[Crimson Phoenix]

Another comment...imagine you're in ma bu and want to pivot to punch into a gong bu...let's say on the right.
If you pivot on the heel, fine, your heel stays in place and the foot pivots clockwise to the right, in the direction of the movement, so the waist power goes in only one direction.
But if you decide to pivot on the ball, then from your ma bu, the only way to turn right is to make your heel go clockwise to the left, with the ball of the foot as the center. But the problem is that your leg is aligned with the heel, not the ball, hence your leg is actually doing a little movement backwards, following the heel. Do the movement, it will be much clearer...so actually when you do this, part of the twisting energy from the hip doesn't go in front in your punch, but back, as the heel rotates to the back, and is dissipated uselessly instead of going in your punch where it should be...it kinda feels like the ground is pulling you, since your leg cannot settle until the heel has settled...in the other example, you really feel rooted, since the root of your leg doesn't leave the ground...

[Water Dragon]

OK, Let me clarify. First, you don't start in front stance, you end up in it. I don't really fight from any "stance" I'm usually about shoulder width, left in front, slightly crouched as I like to play with both boxers and wrestlers. In my punch (I'm talking about a bck hand body shot, comparable to a boxers right cross but more of a Chinese feel), I shift from somewhere around 50/50 into the front stance.

1st mechanic. The lead foot stays planted and grips the ground to squeeze the front kua closed. This is where 3 nails comes in (toe, ball of foot, heel)

2nd mechanic is what I'm trying to get. The heel/toe I'm inquiring is back leg and I want it to help drive my kua closed. If I get this, I add power as I am now driving out of two legs vs. one. The trick is to not compromise my structure.

For me, I feel that driving off of the ball of that back foot assists my front leg mechanic better than the traditional heel way. That's where my question lies.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Well, if I get your scenario right, you stand in a left leg boxer guard, then advance into a right leg gong bu and punch from the left hand, did I get it right?
In that case, the way I do it, there is no turning of the foot implied: you place your left foot in the appropriate angle when you initiate your move, then push off it from the heel. No twisting in that case. To me, the ball is a definite no-no: if your heel is not planted already, then part of the force will serve to plant it first, then will go in the punch. If it is already planted, why not use it in the first place
Of course, all of this makes sense only in the event that you straighten the back leg to add momentum to the hip rotation. It doesn't apply to gong bu punches with the back leg bent...but this is a lousy way, not even worth discussing among orthodox CMA exponents like us

[Water Dragon]

Not quite, I start in a left guard, stalk with my left foot to inch into range (or maybe charge into range, it depends) and then unload with my left leg in the lead. Left foot is rooted into the 3 nails, my question is on adding the right leg mechanic into that. It is a secondary mechanic, but one I feel I need to get down. Think of the back leg in regards to what a boxer does in a right cross. The front leg is all CMA.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Uhh, then I guess if you do it boxing style you'll raise the right heel with the ball as a pivot and the right leg will bend. This will typically look like olympic karate gyaku tsuki. If you keep it CMA Shaolin style, then it's all about rooting the heel and straightening the right leg while you push in the ground.