teaching Chin-Na/Cum-Na

[Subitai]

I was going to answer you Ten but then I realized that I didn't even make your special list of preferred teachers, and Locking is some of my best stuff!! So Sniff sniff... No Soup for you!!!!

I can tell you though, your asking the wrong question however. What comes before (how you set it up) is far more important. Both for attacker and defender.

I see you once every 5 yrs or so...so next time i'll share with you and you'll say to yourself..."HOLY SH!T that's what i've been missing.

[TenTigers]

Originally Posted by Subitai

I was going to answer you Ten but then I realized that I didn't even make your special list of preferred teachers, and Locking is some of my best stuff!! So Sniff sniff... No Soup for you!!!!

I can tell you though, your asking the wrong question however. What comes before (how you set it up) is far more important. Both for attacker and defender.

I see you once every 5 yrs or so...so next time i'll share with you and you'll say to yourself..."HOLY SH!T that's what i've been missing.

okie-dokie bro.
Pho's on me!

[Robinhood]

I don't think you can learn chin-na and apply it correctly , when you reach a certain level you will able to apply it any time because you know body mechanics and can feel what will work, otherwise you will never catch the right move and only try to force moves from visual cues .


Cheers

[Scott R. Brown]

Originally Posted by Robinhood

I don't think you can learn chin-na and apply it correctly , when you reach a certain level you will able to apply it any time because you know body mechanics and can feel what will work, otherwise you will never catch the right move and only try to force moves from visual cues .


Cheers

This is true. In real life you cannot anticipate exactly how your opponent will react. Practicing in class is so formalized that beginners cannot conceive that in reality the opponent will react differently than in class.

But in class your opponent reacts in a manner that will cause the least amount of damage and or pain, he knows to go with the technique. In real life your opponent does not know what is going on or what reaction will bring the least amount of damage.

The natural reaction of most people is to oppose the pain with force, this will screw up a beginner to intermediate student because this reaction is different than what occurs with a cooperative opponent in class.

One must know how to flow from one technique to the next based upon how your opponent reacts. This takes years of experience and the proper mind set. The proper mind set may never be taught however, so even some people who consider themselves advanced may never be able to execute the techniques succcessfully in the wild!

[jmd161]

Originally Posted by TenTigers

When I learned joint manipulations, my teacher would perform joint-locks pretty dang hard.
he would take you past the point of,"Ahhh-ahhh!" and right to the point of involuntary leg spasms and gurgling noises-what seemed to me as right before the breaking point. Every time. If there was a lock that took you down, you literally tried to race him to the floor (face first)
You learned fast-mainly because you didn't want him to do it again!
But...you also knew the technique worked, and you knew the exact angle because you recognized the feeling/pain.
You also had a healthy respect/fear for your teacher.
(These stupid conversations on the forums about asking your teacher to fight, etc. would never even enter your mind.)
So..for the teachers here, especially John and Gino, who do teach chin-na, how hard do you crank it when you are teaching a student?
I ask this because I have the feeling that I have been way too kind to my students when it comes to them feeling certain techniques, strikes included. Way kinder than my teachers were to me, and I'm still here. But I would like to know your experiences, and opinions.

My sifu always makes sure you feel the pain.. not to hurt you but, to show the effectiveness of each technique. Since I'm the big guy 6'2" over 300lbs I get to feel a lot more than most! LOL

Some people have higher threshold of pain than most.. with those you take it a bit further but not far enough to cause damage. I have a sihing like this... sifu gets the point across without having to hurt him.

As to the whole fight your teacher stuff... that thought has never entered my mind with my sifu... He does enough by training with us that tells us that wouldn't be a good idea!

[ginosifu]

TT:

Not to hijack your thread or anything but, How you apply your Kum Na?

1. Strictly dislocating joints?

2. Compliance thru pain?

3. Submission / Take down to ground?

4. Set ups for other tech's like strikes?

5. Set ups for other tech's like throws?

6. Set ups for other grappling techs?

How does everyone train their kum na?

ginosifu

[MightyB]

Originally Posted by ginosifu

TT:

Not to hijack your thread or anything but, How you apply your Kum Na?

1. Strictly dislocating joints?

2. Compliance thru pain?

3. Submission / Take down to ground?

4. Set ups for other tech's like strikes?

5. Set ups for other tech's like throws?

6. Set ups for other grappling techs?

How does everyone train their kum na?

ginosifu

All of the above.

[jmd161]

Originally Posted by ginosifu

TT:

Not to hijack your thread or anything but, How you apply your Kum Na?

1. Strictly dislocating joints?

2. Compliance thru pain?

3. Submission / Take down to ground?

4. Set ups for other tech's like strikes?

5. Set ups for other tech's like throws?

6. Set ups for other grappling techs?

How does everyone train their kum na?

ginosifu

Actually we do all of these except dislocating joints.. We are shown and taught those techniques but don't go that far of course. In Hak Fu we actually have 3 Kum Na forms... The forms are taught in a manner that makes them look like Taiji forms.

[YouKnowWho]

Originally Posted by bawang

if you want to know what is real or fake qin na, tense your muscles and resist. fake qin na cant do anything if you simply tense up.

It won't work on this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOXygzpS9kI

[taai gihk yahn]

Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

It won't work on this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOXygzpS9kI

it's true, I've seen it!

[bawang]

Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

It won't work on this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOXygzpS9kI

usually, if a man wants to fight or kill you, he is not going to lovingly place his palm on your chest.

[Lucas]

Originally Posted by bawang

usually, if a man wants to fight or kill you, he is not going to lovingly place his palm on your chest.

that is the technique you use on the gheys when they hit on you at the bar.

[bawang]

gays dont do that. when they attack they assume the goatse posture.

[Lucas]

Originally Posted by bawang

gays dont do that. when they attack they assume the goatse posture.

i will defer to your experience.

[TenTigers]

Originally Posted by ginosifu

TT:

Not to hijack your thread or anything but, How you apply your Kum Na?

1. Strictly dislocating joints?

2. Compliance thru pain?

3. Submission / Take down to ground?

4. Set ups for other tech's like strikes?

5. Set ups for other tech's like throws?

6. Set ups for other grappling techs?

How does everyone train their kum na?

ginosifu

All of the Above!