Vertical V Horizontal Punching

[Happy Tiger]

Originally Posted by k gledhill

http://youtu.be/GCd5gjSnS7k

Bas Rutten showing a rough idea of how we use elbows and pak/slap parries, without opening up by raising elbows or chasing as he shows remarkably well, by slapping down in a panic. This panic reaction is what we, along with others, also attack. His use of the elbow in for body shots is our basic Jum sao at work.
We also maintain the elbows like this and the fist is VERTICAL , iow the fist angle is BECAUSE of the elbows angles, SLT is the only time we do this strange thing If I raise my elbow horizontally my fist follows suit.

The idea I am introducing here is that we have a defensive ability from elbows held inward (SLT) and angling ( CK ) rather than turning the body too much and as shown getting a following punch for it. We have (BG) for being in a corner or on the 'ropes' with no movement available, we might duck to avoid a hook and slip too to regain a position. We can also deal with hooking swings as BR shows by maintaining distances that allows to add a slap to make the guy over rotate, rather than statue tan sao punch, which is not our way either. IOW I reap more rewards by allowing the opponent to move , over-swing, with a pak/slap parry and take the error he commits or continue if not, at distances to maintain defense.

The article touches on an idea from Jack Dempsey about a 'line of force' available in the same striking method, linear, elbow low defensive lines as BR clip, add mobility and angling and the same punches take on an alternating, cycling, angle, strike, defensive mobility, AKA Ving Tsun , just add low kicks and intent to attack once started to finish the guy.

If we combine strikes [facing squarer allows this] with parries we can see speed increased by combining attack and parry. At the boxing gym I teach and workout in, the coaches all admire the simple simultaneous parries, not fancy, just a slap parry and a punch in the same beat. Rather than parry ...hit...parry...hit. Jum sao aka elbow in blocking action, combined with striking,elbows in, in a seamless action, becomes a defensive ~ attacking action, capable of following the body punch back, from Lat sao jik chun drills of chi-sao. Add short force ideas....we have a goal to aim for.

WSL was noted to have mentioned that more boxers might adopt this centered striking method, but large gloves prevented the same results as mentioned in the article.

Interesting, the Bas's opinion on gaan sau . Particularly from a WSL perspective.

[LFJ]

Originally Posted by Happy Tiger

Interesting, the Bas's opinion on gaan sau . Particularly from a WSL perspective.

There's the story that a man WSL was fighting dropped his whole body into the low strike. Yip Man told him he could have blocked it if he used gaansau.

In that situation, gaansau would have been safe because the opponent's whole body was low and he couldn't have made a threat toward the upper gate.

But what about a low punch from an opponent who remains upright? Dropping the hand could expose the upper gate, even if launching a simultaneous strike or attempting to angle. The opponent may continue attack of the upper gate, and it may take too long to raise the arm back up to have both arms for protection.

In my experience, I would continue to use jamsau in the way Bas shows in his video, coupled with a quick squat with the stance to adjust for the height of the attack without needing to drop a hand or overextend myself. This way both hands are up and available at all times, moving very little, essentially just making use of the stance and body.

I also use this jamsau action with a squat against straight kicks at various levels which effectively turns the opponent into an awkward position. I would likely only use gaansau against kicks at an opportune time to gain quick position on the opponent, but not so much against low punches as that leaves risk at the upper gate.

To defend against low punches, gaansau may be useful as recovery from for example a wrong bongsau, because it gets one to the outside where the opponent has limited use of their limbs due to the angle.

As a defense against low punches when squared off with an opponent, where neither have the upper hand, I would agree with Bas- use jamsau instead of gaansau.

[k gledhill]

Originally Posted by LFJ

There's the story that a man WSL was fighting dropped his whole body into the low strike. Yip Man told him he could have blocked it if he used gaansau.

In that situation, gaansau would have been safe because the opponent's whole body was low and he couldn't have made a threat toward the upper gate.

But what about a low punch from an opponent who remains upright? Dropping the hand could expose the upper gate, even if launching a simultaneous strike or attempting to angle. The opponent may continue attack of the upper gate, and it may take too long to raise the arm back up to have both arms for protection.

In my experience, I would continue to use jamsau in the way Bas shows in his video, coupled with a quick squat with the stance to adjust for the height of the attack without needing to drop a hand or overextend myself. This way both hands are up and available at all times, moving very little, essentially just making use of the stance and body.

I also use this jamsau action with a squat against straight kicks at various levels which effectively turns the opponent into an awkward position. I would likely only use gaansau against kicks at an opportune time to gain quick position on the opponent, but not so much against low punches as that leaves risk at the upper gate.

To defend against low punches, gaansau may be useful as recovery from for example a wrong bongsau, because it gets one to the outside where the opponent has limited use of their limbs due to the angle.

As a defense against low punches when squared off with an opponent, where neither have the upper hand, I would agree with Bas- use jamsau instead of gaansau.

good post. many vt dont use jum sao at all

[wingchunIan]

Originally Posted by LFJ

There's the story that a man WSL was fighting dropped his whole body into the low strike. Yip Man told him he could have blocked it if he used gaansau.

In that situation, gaansau would have been safe because the opponent's whole body was low and he couldn't have made a threat toward the upper gate.

But what about a low punch from an opponent who remains upright? Dropping the hand could expose the upper gate, even if launching a simultaneous strike or attempting to angle. The opponent may continue attack of the upper gate, and it may take too long to raise the arm back up to have both arms for protection.

In my experience, I would continue to use jamsau in the way Bas shows in his video, coupled with a quick squat with the stance to adjust for the height of the attack without needing to drop a hand or overextend myself. This way both hands are up and available at all times, moving very little, essentially just making use of the stance and body.

I also use this jamsau action with a squat against straight kicks at various levels which effectively turns the opponent into an awkward position. I would likely only use gaansau against kicks at an opportune time to gain quick position on the opponent, but not so much against low punches as that leaves risk at the upper gate.

To defend against low punches, gaansau may be useful as recovery from for example a wrong bongsau, because it gets one to the outside where the opponent has limited use of their limbs due to the angle.

As a defense against low punches when squared off with an opponent, where neither have the upper hand, I would agree with Bas- use jamsau instead of gaansau.

if you are human and don't compromise your fixed elbow distance (jum sao should be forwarding so that if nothing is met it becomes a punch) or posture then jum sao covers to a certain height fixed by the length of your upper arm, gang sau allows the area below that, between the waist and the elbow to be covered but equally provides a structured interception for body shots on the outside at the same height where jum doesn't work.

[Happy Tiger]

Originally Posted by k gledhill

good post. many vt dont use jum sao at all

Good points. I'm glad WSL house has kept the extra jum sau in SNT. Nice position to strike vertical fist.

[LFJ]

Originally Posted by wingchunIan

if you are human and don't compromise your fixed elbow distance (jum sao should be forwarding so that if nothing is met it becomes a punch) or posture then jum sao covers to a certain height fixed by the length of your upper arm, gang sau allows the area below that, between the waist and the elbow to be covered but equally provides a structured interception for body shots on the outside at the same height where jum doesn't work.

A lot of people tend not to realize how useful the stance is in aiding the hands.

The same effect can also be achieved by making use of the stance. The quick squat as I described adjusts your height without compromising the fixed elbow distance or structure. It simply lowers your entire body structure to allow jamsau to cover the area that would have been between the waist and elbow.

It would seem WSL got hit by the low attack because he didn't sufficiently drop his stance along with his jamsau, so his jamsau couldn't cover that area. He probably realized it was still as useful as gaansau in defending low attacks like that, and therefore kept both in his SLT.

You can also turn and angle your body with the squat to defend low attacks from the outside without dropping either hand, in which case an outside jatsau action can be used.

Boxers sometimes have a similar approach to blocking body shots without dropping the hands, although their defensive actions don't have an offensive element to them. (See video below.)

I would rather use jamsau on the outside of the straight punch in order to turn it into a strike of my own, whereas this guy crosses which turns himself away and doesn't put him in that offensive position. He also doesn't make use of his stance by dropping or turning the way I'm describing.

For those reason and others, this is not a very good example, but if you use your imagination you can see how the VT actions would be used here. For low straight attacks use jamsau, on the outside shift into jatsau, employing the quick squat as needed to cover the area beneath the elbow. In both cases, the upper gate is not exposed and one can simultaneously attack and defend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDDWCi_K4Uc

[k gledhill]

Originally Posted by LFJ

A lot of people tend not to realize how useful the stance is in aiding the hands.

The same effect can also be achieved by making use of the stance. The quick squat as I described adjusts your height without compromising the fixed elbow distance or structure. It simply lowers your entire body structure to allow jamsau to cover the area that would have been between the waist and elbow.

It would seem WSL got hit by the low attack because he didn't sufficiently drop his stance along with his jamsau, so his jamsau couldn't cover that area. He probably realized it was still as useful as gaansau in defending low attacks like that, and therefore kept both in his SLT.

You can also turn and angle your body with the squat to defend low attacks from the outside without dropping either hand, in which case an outside jatsau action can be used.

Boxers sometimes have a similar approach to blocking body shots without dropping the hands, although their defensive actions don't have an offensive element to them. (See video below.)

I would rather use jamsau on the outside of the straight punch in order to turn it into a strike of my own, whereas this guy crosses which turns himself away and doesn't put him in that offensive position. He also doesn't make use of his stance by dropping or turning the way I'm describing.

For those reason and others, this is not a very good example, but if you use your imagination you can see how the VT actions would be used here. For low straight attacks use jamsau, on the outside shift into jatsau, employing the quick squat as needed to cover the area beneath the elbow. In both cases, the upper gate is not exposed and one can simultaneously attack and defend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDDWCi_K4Uc

The use of facing/angling is critical to making a functional use of our techniques.

[wingchunIan]

Completely agree with the use of angling, but not convinced at all by the idea of squating. I'd need to see it done effectively for real.

[k gledhill]

Originally Posted by wingchunIan

Completely agree with the use of angling, but not convinced at all by the idea of squating. I'd need to see it done effectively for real.

We dont squat down, all angling, distances...

[Frost]

and yet even with small gloves, which dont protect the hands as much and allow punches to slip through gaps you dont see any vertical punching or extended guard in MMA
Heck in sports with no gloves, like valetube in Brazil and bare knuckle irish boxing you dont see anything you are talking about, no extended guard and most of the punches are nothing like wing chun....
bare knuckle MMA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VikEh_XScVY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg7Ap...eature=related

irish bare knuckle boxing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t5wg...eature=related

[k gledhill]

Originally Posted by Frost

and yet even with small gloves, which dont protect the hands as much and allow punches to slip through gaps you dont see any vertical punching or extended guard in MMA
Heck in sports with no gloves, like valetube in Brazil and bare knuckle irish boxing you dont see anything you are talking about, no extended guard and most of the punches are nothing like wing chun....
bare knuckle MMA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VikEh_XScVY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg7Ap...eature=related

irish bare knuckle boxing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t5wg...eature=related

You dont know what I am referring to with VT, so its hard for you to have an informed opinion with VT correlation.
Sure you WONT see it , thats what the article led us to see with the 'tests'. Its not natural to tuck elbows in acutely.
The vertical fist is a BY-PRODUCT of the elbows in with VT, not just a vertical punching hand.....why do I feel like I am on a mobius flip of conversation.

[LFJ]

Originally Posted by wingchunIan

Completely agree with the use of angling, but not convinced at all by the idea of squating. I'd need to see it done effectively for real.

If you think you understand my description above (just a quick down-up adjustment at the knees with jam-sau), try giving it a shot in the scenarios I mentioned and see how it turns out. I've been using it to great effect for years.

[LFJ]

Was watching this interview with Sifu Cliff Au-yeung and saw a close enough example of the quick squatting with jam-sau I was talking about. @6:00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj0mei6qcfc

It doesn't have to be as deep or stick at the bottom. It's just a quick and subtle down-up action to change the height so jam-sau can cover the space between the hip and elbow and keep attacking.

It can be used against low strikes and straight kicks so as to keep both hands up ready to attack and defend, rather than dropping one hand in gaang-sau from which you'd need to recover while the opponent may still have both hands attacking high.

[Paul T England]

Great posts guys...

I am always unsure about the history and stats as people put the over. 90% of fights go to the ground, Filipino infuence on boxing etc

Do we have any evidence that the Filipinos influenced the change from vertical punching to horizontal punching. I think it was just the gloves and rules.

Also I don't think dropping/squatting the stance a bit goes against wing chun and I have seen that in Ip Mans Foshan Students and other lines. Better to change level then chase the hands.

LSJC is much easier with the elbow down and from close range contact.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[wingchunIan]

Originally Posted by Frost

and yet even with small gloves, which dont protect the hands as much and allow punches to slip through gaps you dont see any vertical punching or extended guard in MMA
Heck in sports with no gloves, like valetube in Brazil and bare knuckle irish boxing you dont see anything you are talking about, no extended guard and most of the punches are nothing like wing chun....
bare knuckle MMA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VikEh_XScVY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg7Ap...eature=related

irish bare knuckle boxing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t5wg...eature=related

Not exactly great examples. The irish bare knuckle boxers will have learnt to fight in a conventional boxing gym or will have been taught by someone who did. You fight the way you train so of course two kids fighting in the street are going to fight the same way that they have been taught.

The vale tudo guys similarly will have been taught by a boxing coach / MT coach. Fighting styles change over time based on those that are successful, as boxing changed from the old bare knuckle extended hands to the earmuff defence of today over decades so MMA will change with time as fighters and coaches modify their training to suit the environment. The blend of styles has already changed, the next evolution will be the development of striking skills specifically for the arena in question.