Chum Kiu

[wingchunIan]

What does chum kiu mean to you? Not the literal translation although there seem to be many variations of that, or the sequence of techniques, but what do people deem is the purpose (s) of the form?
I thought I'd throw this out there for general discussion as I'm genuinely interested in how much variety there is across the different lineages / schools. If this has been done before then apologies to the veterans but I couldn't see it anywhere.

For me the form is about getting safely into range and finding the safe route to the opponent's jic seen whilst also introducing concepts that build on SNT such as, disconnection of upper and lower body for power, range of motion and ability to go "sung", as well as introducing recovery from mistakes / sub-optimal positions.
As the opinions vary so much on SNT, the basic shapes, chi su and just about everything else I'm sure that there'll be plenty of views, and it would be good to hear them.

[trubblman]

To me Chum Kiu provides examples of how to use the feet, legs, waist, hands and arms as a unit. It's a power form that shows how power is generated not by muscles but by turning. What Chum Kiu shows are foundational, in other words the techniques are more instructive than authoritative.

[Phil Redmond]

To simply, it trains what to do once a bridge in made.

[WingChunABQ]

1. Putting techniques into "operational mode". Two handed techniques combined with motion.

2. Body unity - developing a moveable base to apply the power out of the YJKYM, linking hand techniques with footwork.

3. Footwork- stepping, turning, twisting, kicking.

4. Range work - a study in linking wrist range and elbow range and back out again.

[LoneTiger108]

Originally Posted by trubblman

It's a power form.

That's the simplest way to look at it fme.

It's about 'taming the tiger', which is another way of saying that it is designed to restrict the opponents upper and lower body, so as further techniques can be launched.

It's specific sets of 'methods' and should be trained thoroughly.

[Eric_H]

When the opponent can be dealt with without moving - you use Siu Nim Tao technology.

When the opponent forces you to move, you use Chum Kiu technology.

[Phil Redmond]

I should've added that it depend on what WC lineage you do. Chum and mean sink and it can mean search depending on the Cantonese tone you use. Some say sinking bridge, some say searching bridge.

[Vajramusti]

Originally Posted by Phil Redmond

I should've added that it depend on what WC lineage you do. Chum and mean sink and it can mean search depending on the Cantonese tone you use. Some say sinking bridge, some say searching bridge.

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True Phil.

joy

[LoneTiger108]

Originally Posted by Phil Redmond

I should've added that it depend on what WC lineage you do. Chum and mean sink and it can mean search depending on the Cantonese tone you use. Some say sinking bridge, some say searching bridge.

Pretty silly really wouldn't you say? What is the character? How many variables does that throw up?? What is the form for exactly?

There is only one character for Chum, and I was always taught seeking or searching.

http://translate.google.com/#zh-CN|en|%E5%B0%8B%0A

[wingchunIan]

Originally Posted by Phil Redmond

I should've added that it depend on what WC lineage you do. Chum and mean sink and it can mean search depending on the Cantonese tone you use. Some say sinking bridge, some say searching bridge.

I was trying to avoid just debating the literal meaning and was hoping to tease out some of the differences in theory. So far eveyone seems to concur about the introduction of movement and the generation of power but I'd love to hear from some of the "sinking the bridge" schools and some of those who are critical of using a bridge.

[Lee Chiang Po]

It is hard to be specific when using chinese symbals. It leads to interpretations in theory, which is nothing more than unproven possibilities. Use a more simple and explicit language like english and you can be far more precise.
Some of the explanations I have read here says no one knows what they are talking about. It is no wonder WC has so many different lineages. And spellings. A very good example of this is a few posts back. Sil Lim technology for when you stand still to fight and chum kil when you are forced to move. These are purely training methods where you take it in steps or stages. You can't learn it all at once and you need to do it in phases. step 1 step 2 step 3 , and so on. There is nothing hidden within the forms. Nothing at all. It is all right there and it has no mysterious meanings. And you can more accurately teach it or explain it if you forget all the chinese and symbols.

[trubblman]

Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po

Sil Lim technology for when you stand still to fight and chum kil when you are forced to move. .

Absolutely not.

[Grumblegeezer]

Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po

It is hard to be specific when using chinese symbals. It leads to interpretations in theory, which is nothing more than unproven possibilities.... you can more accurately teach it or explain it if you forget all the chinese and symbols.

An interesting perspective coming from a Chinese speaker. My old Sifu, also Chinese said the same thing. Yet we, his English speaking students, find ourselves intrigued by this ancient language that we don't understand, or only understand poorly... and look to it hoping to find secret answers, when maybe hard training and practical experience is what we really need. But where's the fun in that? LOL

[Vajramusti]

For me I try to find out the truth in concepts or motions. I neither dogmatically accept or reject
language. Texts point to a subject- they are not themselves subjects.

joy chaudhuri

[Phil Redmond]

Originally Posted by LoneTiger108

Pretty silly really wouldn't you say? What is the character? How many variables does that throw up?? What is the form for exactly?

There is only one character for Chum, and I was always taught seeking or searching.

http://translate.google.com/#zh-CN|en|%E5%B0%8B%0A

Not silly at all my Wing Chun brother. I studied Cantonese at a University in NYC. We uses the Yale University Romanization which is in most people's opinion the best one for people who use the Roman alphabet. Anyway, though some say there are 8 tones Yale teaches that there are 7 "musical" tones in Cantonese unlike the 4 used in Mandarin. Mandarin is a lot easier for non-Chinese to learn. For an example of the 7 tones I'll use the Cantonese word Hai. Now in Yale there would be an accent mark either rising or falling to determine the pitch of the word. If you know music then you'll know there is Treble and Bass Clef. So the letter H is use to show a low tone. Hai is going to be a higher pitch that Haih. But since I don't know how to add accent marks here I'll just use Hai. So let's say there are 7 different musical tones to say Hai. Hai can mean shoe, the verb 'to be', crab, a point in space, vagina, etc. They may all sound the same to a non-native speaker but they are very different. There's a story about Bruce Lee having an English boy over to eat and they were serving crab but the boy unknowingly said please pass the vagina. Chum is the same way. The two Chums I mentioned would be different characters just like the different Hai. In the pole form there is a Diu Mah (hanging horse), stance. Diu can also mean fornicate and Mah can mean mother. Get my point? Mah can also mean Marijuana. Some English speakers think the Tao is SLT means Do (Path/Way). But it literally mean head. To summarize, Cantonese word a word can sound the same to the untrained ear but have 7 different meanings and 7 different characters.