The Jews of China

[ghostexorcist]

Originally Posted by Syn7

i dont think there is a huge jewish connection to the native americans. i can see there being some blood tho... just think about it... as man migrates north east to the bering(sp?) straight, its not unreasonable to believe that some of the clans that went north from africa would have eventually turned east and met up with the mongoloids going to the americas... its a fact that native dna is mongoloid with a dash of caucazoid, and that caucazoid could be jewish. i dunno... what i do know is that this mystery will be solved genetically, not thru archeology and anthropology... those are simply guide posts to tell us who to test and where to cross reference... god bless computers aye, imagine having to do that on paper... uuugghh...

sorry for my ramble, havent slept yet and im slightly blunted...

oh, i answered ur PM... thanx...

Yes, they don't have any connection. I just added that paragraph to show that the idea only goes back to the 16th century. I'm pretty sure geneticists have shown that Native Americans are closely related to East Asians. Evidence for their presence in America goes back as far as 14,000 years.

Rambling is good! I do it all of the time. I just sent you the second half.

[Syn7]

thanx man...

yes, my understanding is that natives are mostly east asian... mostly... there is much evidence to support that vikings were in the americas way before their mediteranian counterparts. so that could be a source of caucazoid markers in natives. but some markers go back alot further suggesting they were aquired before they crossed the straight. forgive me, im about five years behind in my reading...

a good vid to watch is called "The Journey Of Man; A Genetic Odyssey - By Spencer Wells.
dude goes all over the earth to gather indigenous samples to trace the migratory paths of human kind. really well done.

as far as science docs for the laymen go, i put it right up there with brian greens elegant universe set...

[ghostexorcist]

I'll have to look those up. I am very interested in biology, evolution, and early human civilization.

[Syn7]

Originally Posted by ghostexorcist

I'll have to look those up. I am very interested in biology, evolution, and early human civilization.

then spencer wells is ur man... dude spent years collecting samples... still is...

[ghostexorcist]

This is what their synagogue looked like in 1722. You can see the obvious Chinese influence. The thing that set it apart from neighboring structures is that the inner most building (not visible) has a Persian-style dome.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._synagogue.JPG

[rett]

Haven't read the whole thread, so apologies for any repeats.

Last years in Deng Feng a friend and training partner from Israel visited the Kaifeng Jewish community and he showed me their brochures and similar materials. Apparently they are not recognized by the State of Israel as real Jews and so it's difficult for them to immigrate to Israel if they wish. After meeting them, my friend thought this was very unfair.

[ghostexorcist]

Originally Posted by rett

Haven't read the whole thread, so apologies for any repeats.

Last years in Deng Feng a friend and training partner from Israel visited the Kaifeng Jewish community and he showed me their brochures and similar materials. Apparently they are not recognized by the State of Israel as real Jews and so it's difficult for them to immigrate to Israel if they wish. After meeting them, my friend thought this was very unfair.

True. They do not qualify for the "Law of Return" because their mothers were not Jewish. I would wager a guess that their ancestors began to marry Chinese women from the very beginning due to the obvious lack of Jewish women. Jewish merchants who traveled to foreign lands often divorced their wives in their country of origin, meaning they were bachelors upon their arrival. In fact, there was such a lack of fresh Jewish blood that the community had to adopt and convert Chinese youths. Of course, any women who married into the community took the Jewish faith too.

The community was pretty much religiously extinct by the mid-1800s. The decline in religiosity started around the 1400s when Jews began to forsake the scriptures to study the Confucian classics in order to improve their social rank. Some continued to perform menial religious tasks (e.g., sprinkling blood on the doorstep) on various holidays in the early 1900s, but they didn't know the significance of the action. Many converted to Islam, Buddhism, and Daoism--or just plain went into hiding--during the anti-foreign sentiment of the Qing-Republic transition (why Islam was accepted may have something to do with the history of loyal service of Muslim officials and generals in the past). One researcher spoke with descendants of the Kaifeng Jews in the mid-1980s and learned that many still had knowledge of their Jewish bloodline but didn’t know anything about Judaism. Several of these descendants traveled to Israel in 2009 to study the religion and the Hebrew language.

The second half of my paper will be published in the next couple of weeks, and since no one can see it unless they are a member of the site, I am posting links to the full article on my blog:

Part I – http://www.historum.com/blogs/ghoste...er-part-i.html

Part II – http://www.historum.com/blogs/ghoste...r-part-ii.html

[rett]

That's interesting, thanks.

In the brochures and materials I saw in 2010 it looked like they had a synagogue and conducted religious observances including Torah recitation and study. I don't know if that would all be post 2009, but the materials didn't give the impression that the community was religiously dead at all. They seemed observant.

[ghostexorcist]

Originally Posted by rett

That's interesting, thanks.

In the brochures and materials I saw in 2010 it looked like they had a synagogue and conducted religious observances including Torah recitation and study. I don't know if that would all be post 2009, but the materials didn't give the impression that the community was religiously dead at all. They seemed observant.

Their religious extinction came with the death of their last Rabbi in 1850, leaving no one with knowledge of Hebrew (not that his was perfect anyways). Their synagogue is recorded as being destroyed time and time again by flood and fire. The last incarnation had fallen into horrible disrepair during the 19th century due to the community's growing poverty. They were so poor, in fact, that they started to sell the synagogue off piece by piece (pieces of which were used to build a local mosque). The building was completely gone by the 1860s. Western Christians and Jews were so distraught about their situation that they convened a meeting of the scattered Jewish clans in 1910 in the hopes of reestablishing the community and rekindling Judaism there. The only problem is that there was a blood feud between two of the clans, and the rest were just not interested in Judaism. They all considered themselves culturally Chinese.

The current religious state of the Jews is thanks largely to the efforts of affluent western Jews. I wouldn’t be surprised if some of these descendants are reconverting to Judaism for some type of economic improvement. I’m not saying that they are not wholehearted about their conversion, but western backing and money from tourism is a nice perk. It’s better than just trying to make a living on their own. I’m sure they get paid well for giving tours in Kaifeng. Just being a descendant--convert or not--is a perk. I've seen where one of them gives tours and travels giving talks.

For those who might be interested, here is a brief paper I wrote on two of the community’s oral legends. It is a companion piece to what I posted above:

http://www.historum.com/blogs/ghoste...end-paper.html