Ginger Fist & Phoenix Eye

[imperialtaichi]

Originally Posted by k gledhill

Under stress our body goes under adrenalin effects and things can get weird pretty quick, your heart rate pounds, your mouth is dry your ass contracts as your nuts disappear and you havent even had the fight yet

Good point. That's why I always say, techniques fail. The more complex it is, the more it fails. Habits is what we rely on, because it's the only thing that carries through when we are under stress. When we are too pumped full of adrenalin to think.

Of course, we should always try to stay calm and clear headed. Easier said than done

[Hardwork108]

Originally Posted by imperialtaichi

Of course, we should always try to stay calm and clear headed. Easier said than done

True and that is what a lot of TCMAs try to achieve at the higher level training. This important fact seems to have escaped to "let's use adrenaline to our advantage" crowd.

[Lee Chiang Po]

The pheonix eye is a simple gouge weapon and I don't think it is a good one at that. Now, the ginger fist, that is different. It is a weapon of destruction, but not a knockout weapon. I had a friend growing up that fought that way. He did it naturally. He would stand square with you, both hands up in front of his face, elbows in close, and would rush in and start chopping downward with one and then the other, so fast that you would not be able to block,pary, or dodge. If he caught you with one it was just hard enough to stun you and it was all over except the severe beating.
I have never seen anything that could inflict as much injury to a face as the ginger fist. He fought a big fat boy that was close to being an albino. Snow white hair, pale blue eyes, almost white skin. Big boy and some thought to be tough. My bud put about 700 stitches in his face and head with that chopping blow. He could swing it fast like doing chain punches. All that red on white was an awesome thing to see.
The problem with this method of hitting is that in the downward blow you will end up quickly getting into the bottom teeth and that will cut your knuckles to hamburger meat. My friends stayed infected and swollen all the time. He cut his knuckles in every single fight he had and he had probably more fights than anyone I ever met.

[imperialtaichi]

Originally Posted by k gledhill

You can never be sure, just hit them until they change their altitude and attitude .

Some go quicker than others...

In Kulo (22pt) a common strategy is to strike strike strike strike strike to force the opponent to deal with you and not to give him a chance to even breathe.

We also aim at multiple striking the opponent to off balance him; a strong opponent can throw heavy strikes and can take strikes when balanced. When off balanced, at least his power is decreased and his ability to take strikes also decreases.

Well at least that's the plan... of which everyone has one until you get hit.

[WC1277]

I don't know what the big stink is against ginger fist or Phoenix eye. Maybe it's just my lineage but it comes very naturally to us.

You use a ginger fist whenever you lost your elbow(raised) and you're coming back to center from being overturned. The elbow pulls in as your fist whips back. It's the only attack you can do when you lost your structure that way. It can also be used when doing an outside whip. For instance, you're rushed, you barely intercept one arm as you step to get of the way and "whip" with a unified body. A punch wouldn't have nearly the same power. You also use it when you lop someone and they overturn themselves. They'll take away power from your punch when they turn too much, intentionally or not, hence enter ginger fist.

Phoenix eye is really only useful as an outside whip at a particular angle to the ribs. To me when that opening presents itself, I don't even think about it, my fist just does it on its own. In fact, both of these techniques aren't conscious thoughts.

[k gledhill]

Originally Posted by imperialtaichi

In Kulo (22pt) a common strategy is to strike strike strike strike strike to force the opponent to deal with you and not to give him a chance to even breathe.

We also aim at multiple striking the opponent to off balance him; a strong opponent can throw heavy strikes and can take strikes when balanced. When off balanced, at least his power is decreased and his ability to take strikes also decreases.

Well at least that's the plan... of which everyone has one until you get hit.

Our objective is to turn them with their own actions or make them turn....fight 1/2 the person.

[imperialtaichi]

Originally Posted by imperialtaichi

We also aim at multiple striking the opponent to off balance him; a strong opponent can throw heavy strikes and can take strikes when balanced. When off balanced, at least his power is decreased and his ability to take strikes also decreases.

In Kulo (22) we train with 2 sets of targets: Primarily the set of targets that controls the opponent's balance and structure (to be honest, these are bio-mechanical points thats mostly common sense). The secondary set (less important) is the targets that causes maximum damage to the opponent. Most control points and damage points do not overlap, with a few exceptions.

We have a number of drills which cultivates the correct habits. As soon as we contact an opponent our hands, feet and elbows go there automatically without thinking. They are very easy to get to. And because most people are not aware of them, your opponent most of the time would not even know they are in trouble until too late.

Damage points, however, everyone knows so everyone will naturally defence against them, which make striking these points very difficult unless the opponent is already losing.

Of course, these controlling points are areas and not dots as it would not be very practical if they are hard to get to the first place.

[imperialtaichi]

Originally Posted by k gledhill

Our objective is to turn them with their own actions or make them turn....fight 1/2 the person.

Ah, so true. Our interpretation of "Side Body Wing Chun" is not that we turn our body to the side, but we turn the opponent's body to the side or we move to the opponent's blind side.

[k gledhill]

Originally Posted by imperialtaichi

Ah, so true. Our interpretation of "Side Body Wing Chun" is not that we turn our body to the side, but we turn the opponent's body to the side or we move to the opponent's blind side.

with ballistic [ newtons cradle ] techniques we fight the vertical axis line with the levers presented to us...we just spin the guy so his other arm has to reach around...it also makes us aware of whats going to be coming next....to turn that too

another thing we dont do is move away from the attack, we create a strong axis line in all directions aka CK we bcome very strong in alignment maintenance..iow we have to be solid in mobile foundations to be able to have this ability to control another axis..or control our own loss of facing , balance etc...critical to our thinking so we spend hours doing the seunma toi ma with variations and tests to make us solid when we contact or redirect forces...
If we move too much ourselves we lose that 'point' to make guys turn from us..instead if we move away they can follow and fill the gap themselves...subtle but what we base our fighting on lat sao chit chung.

[Hardwork108]

Originally Posted by k gledhill

the logic is ....if you need to do 6 phoenix eyes to my forehead ...why not 1 punch that will ko me and send me back 6 ft on my ar s e ?

It is not about doing six phoenix eyes to someone's forhead. It is about using one Phoenix Eye strike to disable the opponent. If you train that enough, then you will be able to use it, as other TCMAs styles do with this technique. It is just one more addition to your arsenal, in the same way as the Dragon Fist and Leopard Fist, which are also taught in the Mainland Chinese lineage of WC that I practice.

Originally Posted by k gledhill

just asking ?

You don't ask, you don't learn.

Originally Posted by k gledhill

I thought PE was more a Praying Mantis thing anyway.

It is and good point, but there are Wing Chun lineages that practice it as they do the Dragon Fist, Leopard Fist, corkscrew punchs to the throat and kneck area; downward straight yang fist to the lower stomack/bladder area; hammer fist, etc.

I would only add that the distinct and not so well known, body unity concepts/training Southern Praying Mantis and related styles such as Pak Mei, make their Phoenix Eye strikes somewhat more effective than that of Wing Chun, after all these styles put more emphasis in such techniques..

[k gledhill]

Originally Posted by Hardwork108

It is not about doing six phoenix eyes to someone's forhead. It is about using one Phoenix Eye strike to disable the opponent. If you train that enough, then you will be able to use it, as other TCMAs styles do with this technique. It is just one more addition to your arsenal, in the same way as the Dragon Fist and Leopard Fist, which are also taught in the Mainland Chinese lineage of WC that I practice.


You don't ask, you don't learn.



It is and good point, but there are Wing Chun lineages that practice it as they do the Dragon Fist, Leopard Fist, corkscrew punchs to the throat and kneck area; downward straight yang fist to the lower stomack/bladder area; hammer fist, etc.

I would only add that the distinct and not so well known, body unity concepts/training Southern Praying Mantis and related styles such as Pak Mei, make their Phoenix Eye strikes somewhat more effective than that of Wing Chun, after all these styles put more emphasis in such techniques..

Ah! the ol' dragon and leopard fists 99 , plus ginger fist, phoenix eye AND uppercuts with hooks.....We dont do those, simple answer.

[Hardwork108]

Originally Posted by k gledhill

Ah! the ol' dragon and leopard fists 99 , plus ginger fist, phoenix eye AND uppercuts with hooks.....We dont do those, simple answer.

You, and most "Wing Chun" out there it seems......

[Yoshiyahu]

Originally Posted by k gledhill

Ah! the ol' dragon and leopard fists 99 , plus ginger fist, phoenix eye AND uppercuts with hooks.....We dont do those, simple answer.

What lineage of WC are you?

[k gledhill]

Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu

What lineage of WC are you?

Yip Man > Victor Kan
...............................> Me
YM > WSL > P Bayer

[Lee Chiang Po]

Originally Posted by Hardwork108

You, and most "Wing Chun" out there it seems......

I think that most styles of Wing Chun today might have incorporated a number of different weapons into themselves. I do not use them mostly because of their being less efficient for me. A gouge can hurt, but it only does local damage on impact, and in most cases the pain is minimalized because of adrenaline. A simply flat palm slap will transfer far more energy into an impact because of the more extensive contact area. It might not cause the distruction of tissue that the gouge will, but it has a greater effect upon the opponent and can stun or even knock him out. That is why I never considered incorperating the pheonix eye. The ginger fist is only really effective if used in a particular manner, and the certainty of self injury is such that it is not a reasonable option. Just an opinion, but based on what I know to be the facts.
One can have alternative methods of fighting, but it is in my opinion that one should not mix his systems. Using incorperated techniques into Wing Chun will alter it's true effectiveness. Mix good and bad and you get mediocre. I am not opposed to shifting from Wing Chun to Jiujitsu when it would better serve, but I do not mix the techniques because each system has it's own principals and concepts which must be adhered to.