Are my theories correct on this?

[tiaji1983]

Hello everyone. I have been studying Taijiquan for a long time. I learned the most in the past 3 years. I was hoping if someone could verify something for me.

In a lot of demonstrations that some people call Fa Jing or the Taiji Punch, they do a punch or a simple movement and the opponent moves back 15 feet. I understand that would be very easy to do if the opponent was off balance or attempting a step in either direction, or was retreating, you basically just follow their energy and add your own energy to it, with of course sinking and using the earth to push them away. Now I have seen some presentations, when the person being hit or pushed is in a strong stance, not moving, perfectly stable. The Fa Jing is done in a way the opponent should be able to ground, or shouldnt do much as far as a moving the opponent is concerned, yet the opponent is "uncontrolably" pushed back like 15 feet.

Now my question is, is that for real, or in every instance is the opponent playing along? The reason I asked, is because in practice, I havent seen someone pushed back more than 1 or 2 steps from being "pushed" in a good strong stance... Or is there something Im missing in MY practice or in the demonstrations?

[jdhowland]

A well conditioned (and well cultivated) student should stumble back at least 15 feet. It makes your demonstrations more impressive.

Seriously though, even in push hands a training partner shouldn't move that much if he is practicing his skill rather than just helping you show yours. That's a low-level demonstration of kung fu, or showmanship if you like.

With real fa jing the opponent should (ideally) drop. More realistically, the body reacts to a fa jing strike as it will to any good boxer's punch.

[tiaji1983]

My thoughts exactly. Its purely for demonstratation. I asked a Master that told me that its just body mechanics, which in a sense is true, but in a sense is not, because if they have a strong stance they shouldnt move... I personnaly dont believe its right masters have to do "demotnstrations" like that to impress students while hiding secrets. Specifically when its masters saying they are GIVING the secrets...

[bawang]

u practice fajing day and night on a sandbag to get good. it has nothing to do with body mechanics

[tiaji1983]

lol hitting a sandbag is the best way to improve fajing. Very true, but without tthe proper body mechanics your fajing will have no power...

[YouKnowWho]

Originally Posted by tiaji1983

they do a punch or a simple movement and the opponent moves back 15 feet.

If any Taiji master can send a 120 lb throwing dummy (less than a human body weight) back for 15 feet, that Taiji master will have some great skill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbNi19c_MRg

[dirtyrat]

Originally Posted by tiaji1983

I asked a Master that told me that its just body mechanics, which in a sense is true, but in a sense is not, because if they have a strong stance they shouldnt move... .

It depends on the direction of the force being applied. If the force pushes an opponent towards his feet then good chance he shouldn't move. The force is absorbed into the ground. But apply the force in an upward direction fashion and in just the right way (against the weak points of the opponent's structure) then no matter how strong the stance is the opponent can be moved... Of course, how the force is generated is also important.

[tiaji1983]

Thats interesting. I was taught when you do peng for example, you sink then raise to make your force go forward and upward. I tried it before to a straight forward moving force to someone in a bow stance, and they didnt move much. What would you think was wrong with that, or what can I do to generate that type of power? Cuz honestly, everyone I seen in real life do it has been faked, so I would like to know if it really exists and how I can do it.

[tiaji1983]

If someone has a good bow stance, and you push straight into the front, where the stance is more stable, that shouldnt happen, right?

[dirtyrat]

Originally Posted by tiaji1983

If someone has a good bow stance, and you push straight into the front, where the stance is more stable, that shouldnt happen, right?

Tim Cartmell explains many of the body mechanics pretty good. Here's a clip of his upcoming dvd. Hope it helps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM-KXUggQ2c

[Subitai]

Originally Posted by tiaji1983

If someone has a good bow stance, and you push straight into the front, where the stance is more stable, that shouldnt happen, right?

No, VS. that set up a guy shouldn't be thrown back. Especially if the so called master is doing such a no-no, IMO.

I.e. a master would never preffer to strike VS. an opponants strong point or Directly INTO that trajectory.

*&#@% I personally hate when I see fake demos of students flying and jumping back wildly. Especially when all the old master does is Wave his hand slightly and BLAMO the student is Jumping a back!!

If a guy could do that to me....against my will, i'd quit the martial world forever.

"O"

[tiaji1983]

I also dislike it, which is why Im asking. If its true, its all good, but I dont know... We'll see...

[Violent Designs]

Originally Posted by dirtyrat

Tim Cartmell explains many of the body mechanics pretty good. Here's a clip of his upcoming dvd. Hope it helps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM-KXUggQ2c

If I wasn't so committed already I would most likely be training under Cartmell sifu. He really understands body mechanics extremely well and everything is explained concisely and precisely.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Originally Posted by violent designs

everything is explained concisely and precisely.

Extremely underrated skill alert!

[KTS]

a really really good player will be able to send u back very far, very easily. the far-thest i was ever tossed in air was just a mere 7 or 8 feet, but that was 7 or 8 feet through the air until landing. and it didnt feel like anything except maybe like a large breeze just picked me up and moved me.
and i didnt even give much force to be manipulated.

there are indeed a lot of fakery(if that is even a word), and a lot of exaggerations. and also ways to cheat and kinda set this up - but these are different. play with the right people and this type of skill isnt so uncommon.

btw, the auto-censoring on here is terrible and doesnt even allow some "clean" words, in case u noticed why "far-thest" is written that way.