What is your criteria for determining skill?

[t_niehoff]

I hear people often say and so-and-so "has good WCK" or that he/she is "skillful". The question I always ask (even if it is just to myself) is: what is your basis for saying that?

I think for many people it is that the person in question can perform the classical forms and drills (chi sao, etc.) "well" and that they can talk theory. For me, that simply means one has acquired the classical curriculum of WCK (i.e., they know and are comfortable performing the WCK movements in an unrealistic environment). Sort of like if they can hit the heavy bag and focus mitts with good form -- that doesn't mean they are a good boxer, just that they have the tools.

I submit that to have "good WCK" or to be "skillful" really should mean that the person in question can use their WCK (use the movements they train to do) in fighting. And that your level of skill will correspond to the level of opponent that you can "hang" with (or defeat) using your WCK (those things you train to do). It's the same with boxers: how good a boxer you are is what you can do in the ring (and against whom). Without seeing a person really box in a ring, and without knowing the quality of their opponent, how can we say whether someone is a good boxer?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Skill is subjective.
Someone may have excellent Chi sao skills, but all that means is that he/she has excellent chi sao skills.

How well someone does something - their skill level in that thing.

[wtxs]

Does having video taped yourself opening an can of woopass on someone with fairies tattooed on their butts count?

[Lucas]

Originally Posted by wtxs

Does having video taped yourself opening an can of woopass on someone with fairies tattooed on their butts count?

depends on the ass wooping and if they had to fight for it at all. i can cut a dog in half with a sword but it doesnt make me a skillful swordsman.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Have you ever heard of a teaching method called "play practice?" In my experience, this is how to develop specific skill - with progressive mini games designed to teach "games sense" (enough understanding to play a game comfortably and competitively.) My ZRM class's "Live drills" are forms of play practice. Sparring is play practice. So is Chi Sao. So is Push hands, or anything with rules, really - although certain rulesets, such as MMA, are complex, official games which play practice develops towards.

Each play practice has its own rules, its own emphasis, and is merely an approximation of the real thing. Play practices within a well designed curriculum are ultimately designed to bring the student from the simplest form of a game to the final, most complex form.

In an MA curriculum based around play practice, the beginner student might start off with a really simple game, with really simple rules. Let's say they start with fixed step, open style push hands. According to Play Practice methodology, in this game there's no detail, no structure, nothing except the 3 rules of the game:
1. no hitting or kicking.
2. pushing and pulling are both allowed.
3. Your feet must stay fixed in place. If you take a step, you lose. If you make your partner take a step, you win.

This simple game is of course not fighting. It's just a game designed to introduce one aspect of combat game sense. An instructor should monitor the game, and provide suggestions on how to play better. For instance, if a student pulls off an effective strategy, the instructor can pause the game and bring everyone's attention to the strategy being used. Then everyone can play with that strategy.

Once it's obvious that a student is no longer learning how to play the game and is instead actually SKILLFULLY PLAYING the game, it's time to move on to a different game. In this instance, let's say that Game #2 is moving step push hands. Again, students are given simple rules to start:
1. No hitting or kicking.
2. Pushing, pulling, and stepping are allowed.
3. You must stay inside the ring. If you leave the ring, you lose. If you make your partner leave the ring, you win.

Once a student becomes comfortable with this ruleset and is seen to be competitively playing the game, it's time to move on again - Perhaps to Shuai Jiao, or perhaps to a basic striking or submission grappling game. As the games progress, the rules become more inclusive and closer to the final ruleset or game, until the student actually has the required game sense, experience and skill to play for real.

This is one way to develop skill and "train your zombie."

[wtxs]

Sorry about that "T", just couldn't help myself after had come across what you said in another thread about the tattoos. As the words which had made Flip Wilson famous - THE DEVIL MADE ME DO IT! Oooh crap ... think my grays are showing ... got to find more dye.

[Phil Redmond]

It's the ability to effectively use your art against some one bent on crushing you, regardless of your lineage/style. If you can't fight you have no real Martial skills. PERIOD
Forms, chi sao, drills, theory, etc. have their place. But there are people who don't know any of these that can fight. The best way to train for an event is the event itself. If you don't fight/compete with people outside of you school comfort zone you'll never know if what you do works for for real.
(I was so tempted to use the Terencism "against resisting opponents")

[HumbleWCGuy]

This thread is basically attacking a straw man. Niehoff, I have to tell you, you have a very myopic view of martial arts. You must have had a horrible instructor and spent many years getting beaten up or afraid of it due to poor skills. There is really no explanation for constantly and unceasingly running the same tired arguments up a flagpole all day, every day.

[Ultimatewingchun]

My criteria for determining skill starts with someone's willingness to show what they can do.

That's first base.

I'm not interested in what they think (or say) second base, third base, etc. is all about until they've reached first base.

[Phil Redmond]

Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun

My criteria for determining skill starts with someone's willingness to show what they can do.

That's first base.

I'm not interested in what they think (or say) second base, third base, etc. is all about until they've reached first base.

I guess we won't be seeing anything from Terence then. He say's he's not good enough to post clips.

[t_niehoff]

Originally Posted by Phil Redmond

I guess we won't be seeing anything from Terence then. He say's he's not good enough to post clips.

Yes, I don't think myself particularly highly skilled enough to warrant showing others how to do WCK. Moreoever, what does it matter if you can't watch a clip of me riding a bike -- that won't help you learn to ride a bike. You have to do it yourself. And that people don't realize this only tells me they aren't riding themselves. That's why I tell people to go train with good fighters, so they can see what I'm talking about. Until you do, you simply won't get it.

But what I find simply f##king amazing is the people who do believe they've got the goods and want to show the world. People like Victor and his clip on how to deal with a hook -- which became laughing stock on bullshido. I guess Phil and Victor feel that posting laughable clips is better than not posting at all.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Originally Posted by t_niehoff

Yes, I don't think myself particularly highly skilled enough to warrant showing others how to do WCK. Moreoever, what does it matter if you can't watch a clip of me riding a bike -- that won't help you learn to ride a bike. You have to do it yourself. And that people don't realize this only tells me they aren't riding themselves. That's why I tell people to go train with good fighters, so they can see what I'm talking about. Until you do, you simply won't get it.

But what I find simply f##king amazing is the people who do believe they've got the goods and want to show the world. People like Victor and his clip on how to deal with a hook -- which became laughing stock on bullshido. I guess Phil and Victor feel that posting laughable clips is better than not posting at all.

If you aren't very good then you need to stop pontificating to people about how to train, and start contributing in a more reasonable manner.

[t_niehoff]

Originally Posted by HumbleWCGuy

If you aren't very good then you need to stop pontificating to people about how to train, and start contributing in a more reasonable manner.

You don't get it -- NONE of us are very good, including the "masters" and "grandmasters". Are any of you handling mid-level MMA fighters or solidly skilled MT fighters with your WCK? Of course not.

My point about training is to stop listening to people who can't fight particularly well tell us about training (which includes just about everyone in WCK) and to start listening to people who can and do fight very well about how to train. My views on training aren't based on my personal accomplishments (I'm not saying "follow me") but on the accomplishments of those that have developed solid fighting skills (listen to what the proven fighters, like MMA, MT, etc., say).

[goju]

Originally Posted by t_niehoff

Yes, I don't think myself particularly highly skilled enough to warrant showing others how to do WCK. Moreoever, what does it matter if you can't watch a clip of me riding a bike -- that won't help you learn to ride a bike. You have to do it yourself. And that people don't realize this only tells me they aren't riding themselves. That's why I tell people to go train with good fighters, so they can see what I'm talking about. Until you do, you simply won't get it.

But what I find simply f##king amazing is the people who do believe they've got the goods and want to show the world. People like Victor and his clip on how to deal with a hook -- which became laughing stock on bullshido. I guess Phil and Victor feel that posting laughable clips is better than not posting at all.

so we should listen to a guy who by his own admittance is not that good when it comes to how to practice martial arts?

makes perfect sense

[sanjuro_ronin]

Originally Posted by goju

so we should listen to a guy who by his own admittance is not that good when it comes to how to practice martial arts?

makes perfect sense

IF you actually listen to what T says you will see that he says to NOT pay attention to the "likes of him" but to learn and do for yourself with constant practice.
If you wanna listen to anyone., listen to those with valid and proven records and not here say or anecdotal "records".