where to look to read the attacker's intent early

[kung fu fighter]

Hey Guys!

What is the definition of intent in the internal arts?

How do you guys in the internal arts train "intent"?

Does intent help to read an attacker's intent to attack early before any physical movement is made?

[Mulong]

Are you referring the notion of yi; if so, when you translate the ideogram for yi you are referring to the notion of thought, but commonly refer to as intent?

Within neijia (internal family) style, intent is usually associated with the flow of qi, i.e., focusing on the projection of energy.

Concerning your last questions; it isn’t about your opponent’s intent, but yours.

[kung fu fighter]

I guess what i am asking is, how do you read an attacker's yi intention before it materializes physically?

Where Do you guys train to look at on the attacker's body to perceive his intent? his eyes? shoulders?

[TenTigers]

if you are trying to read his intent, then you are playing a waiting game. In fighting, it can be anyone's day. One misplaced move, one flick of the finger can take your eye, anyone can win, anyone can lose. You move first, I must land first. My intent must be stronger than yours, no matter what. All action is 99.9% intent.

[kung fu fighter]

How does one train mushin?

[LSWCTN1]

Originally Posted by kung fu fighter

Does intent help to read an attacker's intent to attack early before any physical movement is made?

if you are intent on attacking, you will do it anyway, whether or not they are going to attack you

if by physical movement you mean a strike then it would depend on the situation, but as i mentioned in the wing chun forum, one word answers like 'yeah' and 'what' are usually a tell tale give away. also if their body tenses up you can almost always tell that its on.

other ways to distinguish that confrontation is about to occur are when they walk towards you with a purposefull walk, or when they start to puff their chest out

in regard to mushin, or perhaps nim lik, i am not sure whether you can read someone elses intentions anymore than you could ordinarily - it is something that takes a long, long time to master - and Im not there yet

[thailandgary]

This is a part of training where you need someone to help you to understand it. a lot of people look at it in different ways. My personal training was where you put yourself into the other person's mind long enough to feel their intent towards you. With that , you become them for an instant and you see how they will attack you and you are there before them. I don't know if I can explain this well, it took a very long time to learn and it is just natural now. I try to teach this in detail to my class every year when I return to the United States . Relaxation is also the key.

[thailandgary]

There is something else I would like to share with you.
this is what we were taught to learn intent.

An eye for his eyes ! his eyes are the window to his mind. Learn to read their intentions. See the strike before it is delivered.
your other eye is for his feet. his feet will move before his hands.
Keep your hands aimed at his eyes.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Originally Posted by thailandgary

There is something else I would like to share with you.
this is what we were taught to learn intent.

An eye for his eyes ! his eyes are the window to his mind. Learn to read their intentions. See the strike before it is delivered.
your other eye is for his feet. his feet will move before his hands.
Keep your hands aimed at his eyes.

I wholeheartedly disagree with you. I don't think you have time to 'learn' to read your opponents intentions by looking at his eyes. Are you talking about competitive sport, or street fighting? Besides, and experienced fighter is not going to 'give himself away' so quickly. We train to be deceptive and not to telegraph, no?

And by the time you notice my feet moving, it'll be too late. Are you suggesting that you are going to watch my feet, see them move and then launch your counter-offensive??

Try watching a person's shoulders - it's pretty hard to launch any technique without moving them. They dip, they raise, they pull forward and back, etc. The feet? Not a good idea. They won't tell you what type of technique I'll be throwing, only that one is coming, NOW! But not going to really help you defensively.

Peace

[sanjuro_ronin]

The typical **** causer is easy to read and take out, very little point in training to "read" an open book.
Many fighters that are breed in the "hit first" doctrine are taught to "mask" their intent.
Fact is, reading someone that wants to **** you up and knows how to do it is not easy and can be virtually impossible.
Best to try to read the "signs" rather than the intent.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Originally Posted by thailandgary

This is a part of training where you need someone to help you to understand it. a lot of people look at it in different ways. My personal training was where you put yourself into the other person's mind long enough to feel their intent towards you. With that , you become them for an instant and you see how they will attack you and you are there before them. I don't know if I can explain this well, it took a very long time to learn and it is just natural now. I try to teach this in detail to my class every year when I return to the United States . Relaxation is also the key.

And I'm sorry - that sounds like a bunch of mumbo jumbo to me. Are you serious? And when does all this 'personality transference' take place? When the guy starts hitting you or after you fall on the floor?

It's bullshit like this that give TCMA a bad name...

Gary, I enjoyed watching some of your clips and it seems like you have had some decent training and a grasp of some concepts...but who are you trying to kid here...or do you actually believe that?? And please don't share all your military experiences with us again or talk about where you lived/live....I could live in a third world country as well and visit the states once a year. I don't think it would make me a better martial artist.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Originally Posted by Lama Pai Sifu

And I'm sorry - that sounds like a bunch of mumbo jumbo to me. Are you serious? And when does all this 'personality transference' take place? When the guy starts hitting you or after you fall on the floor?

It's bullshit like this that give TCMA a bad name...

Gary, I enjoyed watching some of your clips and it seems like you have had some decent training and a grasp of some concepts...but who are you trying to kid here...or do you actually believe that?? And please don't share all your military experiences with us again or talk about where you lived/live....I could live in a third world country as well and visit the states once a year. I don't think it would make me a better martial artist.

There is merit to putting yourself in shoes shoes/mindset in training, I don't think you have the time in the ring, much less in combat.

[monji112000]

Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin

There is merit to putting yourself in shoes shoes/mindset in training, I don't think you have the time in the ring, much less in combat.

so how long does it take when your in training to "feel their intent towards you. With that , you become them for an instant and you see how they will attack you and you are there before them."

Does this training come with a decoder ring? :P I get what you mean about putting yourself in their shoes SJ, but telepathically knowing what they will do is out of my area of knowledge. Do I need a special uniform or chi development for this method? do the planets need to align correctly?

allot of people telegraph with their eyes. others can tell you one thing and do another. I have heard about watching shoulders, and watching the legs can be a very bad idea. One big reason is you miss the hands.

All of the ways people say to tell how someone is attacking you must be practiced, not just a few times... its not easy ..

[sanjuro_ronin]

so how long does it take when your in training to "feel their intent towards you. With that , you become them for an instant and you see how they will attack you and you are there before them."

about 23 minutes and 35 seconds.

Does this training come with a decoder ring?

Yes, yes it does.
Year's supply of rubber too !

I get what you mean about putting yourself in their shoes SJ, but telepathically knowing what they will do is out of my area of knowledge. Do I need a special uniform or chi development for this method? do the planets need to align correctly?

allot of people telegraph with their eyes. others can tell you one thing and do another. I have heard about watching shoulders, and watching the legs can be a very bad idea. One big reason is you miss the hands.

All of the ways people say to tell how someone is attacking you must be practiced, not just a few times... its not easy ..

Actually, putting yourself in their shoes with the correct intent ( to do bodly harm) allows you to understand the best way to get at your victim, and the worse things he can do/try to defend himself, how he invites and attack, etc.

Nothing mystical about it.

You can't always read intent, it becomes more a matter of perception than reading, but you can read the signs that lead up to an attack.

[TenTigers]

if you are "looking at the eyes and the feet at the same time' you are using peripheral vision. You take in the entire body as a gestalt. If I look at your eyes, I can still see your whole body. this is part of connecting.

Being in your opponent's head is making a connection, feeling not only his intent, but his rhythm, initial movement.(this should be a quick, momentary thing) Of course, this is why we also practice being deceptive and broken rhythm.

Praticing intercepting intent is like wild west gunfighting, or two samurai (or kendoka)facing each other. You wait motionless, you try to connect, and as soon as he initiates his attack, you strike hard and fast.

these are not solutions, simply tools. Parts of a whole.
"Black Tiger Steals the Heart" is how we say it in Hung-Ga.