Zen & The Martial Arts

Zen, popular as it is, and widely practiced has some great stories that are worth sharing. This is not by any means to popularize Zen but simply to be something fun for the forum and keep people thinking about some interesting stuff, so in this particular topic, I will be tossing in a Zen Story every now and then (although you may have already seen it, or one like it) and people can post their comments and thoughts on the story. Also, anyone else is welcome to post their stories/ideas here also as of course it is a public forum. I just thought this might be something fun and outside of the "norm" hence we can avoid the usual arguments and struggle over which MA is ultimate ;)

--- The Story Begins ---
The wife of a man became very sick. On her deathbed, she said to him, "I love you so much! I don't want to leave you, and I don't want you to betray me. Promise that you will not see any other women once I die, or I will come back to haunt you."

For several months after her death, the husband did avoid other women, but then he met someone and fell in love. On the night that they were engaged to be married, the ghost of his former wife appeared to him. She blamed him for not keeping the promise, and every night thereafter she returned to taunt him. The ghost would remind him of everything that transpired between him and his fiancee that day, even to the point of repeating, word for word, their conversations. It upset him so badly that he couldn't sleep at all.

Desperate, he sought the advice of a Zen master who lived near the village. "This is a very clever ghost," the master said upon hearing the man's story. "It is!" replied the man. "She remembers every detail of what I say and do. It knows everything!" The master smiled, "You should admire such a ghost, but I will tell you what to do the next time you see it."

That night the ghost returned. The man responded just as the master had advised. "You are such a wise ghost," the man said, "You know that I can hide nothing from you. If you can answer me one question, I will break off the engagement and remain single for the rest of my life." "Ask your question," the ghost replied. The man scooped up a handful of beans from a large bag on the floor, "Tell me exactly how many beans there are in my hand."

At that moment the ghost disappeared and never returned.

Thoughts?

A spirit cannot necessarily know what we cannot know. If indeed it was the own mans mind that haunted him each night, he asked himself a question that indeed he could not answer and in that the power of his haunting dissapeared. That which he gave power, this memory or ghost as it may of his wife who knew everything he did no longer had the power when it did not know what he could not know either.

What are your thoughts! :)

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

A martial arts student approached his teacher with a question. "I'd like to improve my knowledge of the martial arts. In addition to learning from you, I'd like to study with another teacher in order to learn another style. What do you think of this idea?"
"The hunter who chases two rabbits," answered the master, "catches neither one."

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

The first story didn't seem to have any particular "Zen" qualities that I could see. The second one is an oldie, but a goodie...

K. Mark Hoover

Zen qualities are those qualities which we draw from ourselves. In not knowing how many beans were in his hand, he drew from himself the realization that even the ghost (which he likely created in his mind) did not know everything either, and in that, it lost its power over him. At least thats one interpretation of it. But maybe it didn't apply to how your concept of Zen is in which case there will be more stories to come!

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

I think you hit the nail on the head.
When the man in the story asks the ghost a question dependent on knowledge that he does not possess, he creates a paradox in which he destroys his self as manfested in the ghost.

I think the message is don't torture yourself with guilt, as the pressure is created by you and exists only within you.

I have always been intrigued by the classic "what is the sound of one hand clapping?".

It seems that the heart of the Koan relies on ideas about perception. Or rather, perception itself. In order to perceive something that cannot "exist" there must not be anything besides the self.

What do you think about that one?

I think the first story is about Zen, the rabbit chasing story is just plain old wisdom.

Has anyone read "Zen in the Martial Arts" by Joe Hyams? I did last week and thought it was pretty good.

By the way,

Q: What is the sound of one hand clapping?

A: A slap across the face.

K. Mark Hoover

Zen and Aikido is also good, but obviously aikido related.

Have your read "Three Pillars of Zen"?

It has explainations of the philosophy and history, and the personal stories of many people who went to Japanese monstaries to study, many without success, some with success (in their own words).

If there's a text book on Zen, that's probably it.

Interesting answer to the one hand clapping....

Simplly presence of mind?

Lyle, it is a great thing to wonder. Only you can give yourself the answer to what Zen is. That is the teachings of Zen. Alan Watts, a great translator of Zen in quite a long speech had his first words something along the lines of 'If you walk away from this thinking you know anything about Zen then you missed the entire point'.

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

It's nice to have stories to remind us of things we all know, but sometimes our minds get to cluttered to remember.

Releasing yourself of guilt from an impossible promise is a good one to remember. We all make goals--promises to ourselves--that are sometimes impossible to keep (or simply improbable, I guess nothing is really "impossible"). And the fact that he holds no ownership to having made a mistake in making such and impossible promise to me is living for the moment and moving on. We can't change the past. However, the trouble with this comes that we can repeat it if we don't learn from it. Will the man make the same mistake if his new bride dies?

Robin

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

Lyle,

Try “The Sutra of Hui-Neng” He was the sixth patriarch of Chan in direct line from Bodhidharma. It is the only Chinese text on Zen that is considered a Sutra. You can find it at Amazon, Barnes and Knoble. I can send you an online copy for free if you want to e-mail me.

Zen is not simply “presence of mind” although it is a kind of presence of mind. Zen’s purpose is to see directly into the essence of your own mind, to understand the true reality for yourself. The purpose of a Master or instructor is merely to point you in the correct direction; each person does the work individually.

Sincerely,

Scott

P. S. ,
This is the sound of one hand clapping:

Scott

fish

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

Lyle: I am just reading the 3 pillars right now. Did you try it at all?
Did you have any kind of transcendental or awakening exoeriences?
Are you aware of the controversy surrounding Yasutani recently.? If not, I'll give you a URL.
Certainly at the very least i think we can say any kind of zen or enlightenment experience gives a kungfu practicioner "improved performance".
Actually it can be no doubt the highest level (3rd level) of kungfu practice is taoism, buddhism, the use of the Overself etc.

My Mantis Sifu's opinion was that the second level was "feeling the blood in the finger", to which i believe he meant Yoga. It seems a reasonable classification.

Anyway "eat when hungry, sleep when tired".
Can't get much better than that.

"Without water there would be no fish"