Inside Kung Fu Bak Mei Butterfly Hand Bak Mei Article ?

[Firehawk4]

In the inside kung fu magazine there is a article on Bak Mei it says there are 12 lineages of Bak Mei and that Cheung Lai Chuns is just one it also mentions a Bak Mei style that comes from Jack Moi of Chicago called Butterfly Hand Bak Mei anybody ever herd of it ?

[Ng Jit]

My sifu Manuel Rodriguez studied Butterfly hand from Uncle Jack Moi in Chicago, it is a subset to his White Eyebrow...

[Yum Cha]

Hi Firehawk,

Without any comment on Uncle Jack Moi, whom I don't know anyway....

We've discussed this before, with all the references, recounts of face-to-face discussions, and confirmation, but people still get confused, or even outright misinformed.

There is one lineage of Pak Mei. It comes from Cheung Lai Cheun. Futsan, Vietnam, Guangzhou, Hakka, Taiwan Military, are all from CLC.

There is some smoke from Doo Wai about his special Pak Mei from Omei, and since he is the only one that knows it, I'll just leave that to your own speculation based upon his character.

There is also talk about a very soft Pak Mei, which best guess is a coincidental common name.

But the ferocious, agressive short armed hakka art that the world knows as Pak Mei comes from only one source, Cheung Lai Cheun.

Since his death, many of his students were cross trained, many have added forms, deleted forms, changed or lost bits and pieces in the evolution, and thus you will see outward differences. This does not make or un-make Pak Mei. Pak Mei is not the forms.

The important issue is that the essence of Pak Mei, the fusion of internal "Sam Chen" based skills, and the external short armed skills remains common, and notable to the trained eye.

If you lose that, or never learn it, its not Pak Mei, no matter the lineage.

[lkfmdc]

Originally Posted by Yum Cha

many of his students were cross trained, many have added forms, deleted forms, changed or lost bits and pieces in the evolution, and thus you will see outward differences. This does not make or un-make .....

I have nothing to really add, other than this point probably applies to ALL TCMA

[Yum Cha]

Originally Posted by lkfmdc

I have nothing to really add, other than this point probably applies to ALL TCMA

Exactly.

You could go further to argue that they do actually become different lineages, and fairly so, but from a generation later than CLC. No argument.

The critical issue is that there was no "Blue Grass Monk" in Pak Mei, who spent all his time picking in Nashville while CLC was learning elsewhere, and he handed his additional secret skills of Banjo and Git-ar Fu Pak Mei to only a select few, etc, etc....

Even if there was a lineage from another student of the monk(s) that taught CLC, (and no doubt there were/are) it was what CLC added to the skills (the mixture of the internal exercise and the lifetime of prize fighting) that is the definitive genisis of the art known worldwide as Pak Mei. He put the puzzle together.

If I sound narky on the issue, its not of my own interest.

There are at least two mobs out there trying to sell DVDs and instruction of an "alternative" lineage Pak Mei that are trying to profit on the ignorance of honest students, by leveraging the reputation of CLC.

Of course, they have to claim an alternative lineage, because what they are selling is nothing like the Pak Mei of CLC, but the novice would never know.

There are other lineages that have had fallout with the Pak Mei establishment, and have tried to distance themselves for various reasons as well. I'm not big on politics, just on accuracy.

[lkfmdc]

I'm torn, I'm not sure which is worse, those for whom lineage is everything vs. those who deny all lineage

As a former history teacher, you've got to know where you came from, not that it completely defines you, history teaches us about change as well.

But, again, sadly, so many TCMA lines go back to some mystic monk who we can't get anything on, the mysts of the secret past

Different interpretations are ok, and if you made them up, just say so I guess?

Don't know, really find this stuff disturbing and can't get a handle on it

[Yum Cha]

Originally Posted by lkfmdc

I'm torn, I'm not sure which is worse, those for whom lineage is everything vs. those who deny all lineage

This kinda dovetails with that thread about forms and tradition.

Firstly those that use lineage as a crutch to legitimise their skills are usually the ones that need a crutch, or coat tails, as the case may be.

Also, all the great grand masters were innovators, bringing something new and evolved to the table. The difference being, their new innovations proved to be good, and not just change for the sake of change or "marketing".

Also, I think those innovators often fabricated a source of inspiration or lineage to validate their as yet unproven innovation.

Originally Posted by lkfmdc

I'm torn, I'm not sure which is worse, those for whom lineage is everything vs. those who deny all lineage

As a former history teacher, you've got to know where you came from, not that it completely defines you, history teaches us about change as well.

But, again, sadly, so many TCMA lines go back to some mystic monk who we can't get anything on, the mysts of the secret past

Different interpretations are ok, and if you made them up, just say so I guess?

Don't know, really find this stuff disturbing and can't get a handle on it

you should read Doug Wile's latest piece on this very issue in the latest JAMA in regards to taiji - he hits the nail firmly on the head re: the whole contrivence of the Chang San Feng myth, and he disects very handily the motivations and methods of the various players over the years who have co-opted the story one way or another for their own personal agenda (Chen family, Yang family, communist party / PRC, etc.)

[Yum Cha]

One of those universal human condition thingys....

I think you'll find, the bigger the style - the more widespread - the more of these 'spin off' issues arise.

It just goes to show, traditional or not, nothing stays the same over the generations, despite the best efforts of the elders. And likewise, not all change is good or bad.

Like the tide, it never stops when you measure it across the generations.

[lkfmdc]

I think if you have studied the literature at all and are intellectualy honest, you have to admit that a lot of Chinese martial artists were illiterates who for a long time weren't interested in history, theory or philosophy.

When time came to get "legit" and questions about history popped up, a lot of times famous historical characters, many ficitional, were just randomly grabbed and inseted into a questionable hodge podge of history

[Yum Cha]

Originally Posted by lkfmdc

I think if you have studied the literature at all and are intellectualy honest, you have to admit that a lot of Chinese martial artists were illiterates who for a long time weren't interested in history, theory or philosophy.

When time came to get "legit" and questions about history popped up, a lot of times famous historical characters, many ficitional, were just randomly grabbed and inseted into a questionable hodge podge of history

LOL! do ya RECKON?

It gets really interesting when that fictious character suddenly develops a brother, who than spawns a whole 'nother reality predicated on the existance of the first fairytale.

[ittokaos]

Hello Firehawk!

I am glad that you liked the article. My sifu wrote it as a way to promote the style and get people talking about it.

If you would like to know more about it I suggest that you send my Sifu an email or try to get a hold of Sifu Rodriguez. Other than that I dont think that you will be able to find out about it.

[cranky old man]

ozz l wondered how long it would be before youd get on here . hope your well , hows your dad. youve hit the nail on the head . when l first started pak mei no one had heard of it.then up all kinds of " masters " popped up. with there fairy tale lineages. but as my sifu says at least they arent dangerous lol

[htowndragon]

what about zhong luo's futshan bak mei?

[Mas Judt]

'Uncle' Jack Moy owned and taught at the Ho Luck restaurant in Schaumburg IL. He was a friend and contemporary of Sammy Wong, a Chu Gar master who taught in Chicago. Uncle Jack also taught for a few years at the Chinese School, where I taught Shuai Chiao with my classmate Dwight Foster under our teacher Dr. Brian Wu.

I knew Manny Rodriguez, he taught me some Chu Gar and made sure my Shuai Chiao did not s@ck as my coach and training partner in that art. During this time, I learned some of the Bak Mei Wu Dip Sau from Uncle Jack. To say that he was doing this for money is a woefully ignorant statement.

Uncle Jack called it a 'family' method. I.e. it is Bak Mei, but has some added focus/skills. There was no mystical history or even talk of the history. Just about what it was.

While people with BS lineages are annoying, so are those that asume to know everything (yeah, I'm guilty at times too.) .

I cannot attest to what was in the article, as none of those guys looked like what Uncle Jack taught, nothing they said was incorrect either, according to my understanding.

I'm not a 'Bak Mei' guy though, so I cannot judge it's closeness to orthodoxy - although other Bak Mei I have seen was similar.