Shaolin Temple & Buddhism

[Citong Shifu]

Originally Posted by LFJ

if thats what you're talking about then, i find it odd. because "shaolin (prc)" makes a very strange title.

to me, and in the hearts of many traditional monks, disciples and students of shaolin temple, this "prc shaolin" is not shaolin at all. its just like saying those sausages sold under the shaolin name were shaolin.

modern shaolin is the same as the old shaolin. just like the dharma can wear many colors, have many expressions. but essentially it is unchanged and remains the same. shaolin, to us, is a path of dharma. therefore a path of simplicity.

this "prc shaolin" is a movement, not a path. a movement may need to uphold some image and cover its tracks. but a path is meant to be clear. and it is.

and paths may cross, but as richard says, its always out in the open.

my advice: if you want to know the fact of what shaolin is, dont follow the "prc shaolin" movement- follow the path.

Ok! I guess the PRC doesnt control or run Modern Shaolin Temple (Songshan & Putain). This is why I use Shaolin (prc). This is a common fact with Shaolin Tample. And, Modern Shaolin Temple is not the same as the old ST!!!!!!!!!! But, if you insist, ok... I have alot of facts concerning this subject. The path, what is the path? Shaolin philosophy teaches us not to "define". My intentions are not to discredit Modern Shaolin, only discuss what has been twisted and kept from the public.

[LFJ]

Originally Posted by Citong Shifu

Ok! I guess the PRC doesnt control or run Modern Shaolin Temple (Songshan & Putain). This is why I use Shaolin (prc). This is a common fact with Shaolin Tample. And, Modern Shaolin Temple is not the same as the old ST!!!!!!!!!! But, if you insist, ok... I have alot of facts concerning this subject. The path, what is the path? Shaolin philosophy teaches us not to "define". My intentions are not to discredit Modern Shaolin, only discuss what has been twisted and kept from the public.

i'm afraid you've completely misunderstood me. let me define (even if shaolin philosophy says not to ):

my idea of this "prc shaolin" is the whole movement led by yongxin.

my idea of true "shaolin" is a path of dharma. which rules out yongxin's movement, imho.

and since shaolin is a path of dharma and the dharma is unchanging, because it is unconditioned, therefore i say modern shaolin is the same as old shaolin.

its something that exists only in ones heart. outside of the physical structure of the temple, and far beyond the politics of yongxin's movement.

that being made clear, again the twists and information being kept from the public has nothing to do with shaolin. how could that ever be a part of dharma? what you are talking about is "prc shaolin" aka. yongxin's movement.

it is as far from being shaolin as the "shaolin" sausages.

so as far as true shaolin is concerned, if you are looking at this movement as modern "shaolin"- a continuation and evolution of shaolin, you might as well be eating shaolin sausages.

[Citong Shifu]

Originally Posted by LFJ

i'm afraid you've completely misunderstood me. let me define (even if shaolin philosophy says not to ):

my idea of this "prc shaolin" is the whole movement led by yongxin.

my idea of true "shaolin" is a path of dharma. which rules out yongxin's movement, imho.

and since shaolin is a path of dharma and the dharma is unchanging, because it is unconditioned, therefore i say modern shaolin is the same as old shaolin.

its something that exists only in ones heart. outside of the physical structure of the temple, and far beyond the politics of yongxin's movement.

that being made clear, again the twists and information being kept from the public has nothing to do with shaolin. how could that ever be a part of dharma? what you are talking about is "prc shaolin" aka. yongxin's movement.

it is as far from being shaolin as the "shaolin" sausages.

so as far as true shaolin is concerned, if you are looking at this movement as modern "shaolin"- a continuation and evolution of shaolin, you might as well be eating shaolin sausages.

LFJ, Sorry. I think I did misunderstand your post. I couldn't agree more with your post/reply. Yongxin's movement, correct. His appointment was political. He has no real kungfu or wushu background, but yet he speaks and makes decisions concerning Shaolin wushu and its evolution, etc. He is a business man (graduate business degree) working for the PRC. Believe this. Its common knowledge. Shaolin Temple is so commercialized now it's not even funny. Money, money, money.... This I dont really care to much about, only there efforts (Songshan) to claim domination over the entire Shaolin kungfu world.... Its been said and quoted in many of the magazine articles/publications that unless one is associated or affiliated with Songshan Shaolin Temple, one is not a legitimate Shaolin kungfu practitioner or instructor. Same if one is not a Chan practitioner... I agree with you on learning a philosophy to train the mind and character. I just dont believe it has to be Chan. To make or trick someone into practicing any religion is wrong. How is
Shaolin Temple doing this? By making statements like, without Chan one can master shaolin kungfu, etc.... I understand that Chan has much influence on Shaolin kungfu philosophically, but not the religous aspect of Chan... Anyway, I think you know where I'm going with that, lol...

Really, I'm not against the new evolving Shaolin Temple or its kungfu. This evolution has really boosted the popularity of the Shaolin arts. Just want to see the credit shared throughout the world Shaolin kungfu.

[LFJ]

Originally Posted by Citong Shifu

Its been said and quoted in many of the magazine articles/publications that unless one is associated or affiliated with Songshan Shaolin Temple, one is not a legitimate Shaolin kungfu practitioner or instructor. Same if one is not a Chan practitioner...

but, said and quoted by whom? there's the famous line "tianxia gongfu chu shaolin". (all gongfu comes from shaolin) but there is a following line that is often forgotten, even though its importance is far greater. that is "shaolin gongfu bian tianxia". (shaolin gongfu spreads throughout the world) and what happens when lineages branch out across the world? of course! some become unassociated, and things change.

but, i could understand maybe if its said because their gongfu evolves into something not practiced at the temple. it would be some sort of offshoot, i guess. if you wanted to be technical. its not shaolin if its not developed by those in shaolin... ?

and as for not being a chan practitioner- well, you may not be a disciple of true gongfu if that is defined as a physical expression of chan. then you'd just be a martial artist. and we all know there are many great martial artists in the world.

I agree with you on learning a philosophy to train the mind and character. I just dont believe it has to be Chan.

well, to be literal, the word "chan" refers to a deep state of meditation. once entered anything will be an expression of it. (going back to "real gongfu") but

basically, chan in itself never indicates philosophy. chan is unique in that it does not require a belief or any written word to be followed. therefore, so long as one can find a way to reach a state of what we call "chan", then it doesnt matter what your religion may be.

like i said, shi suxi told shi xinghong nothing about religion or philosophy. he simply told him about his state of mind not being quiet enough.

To make or trick someone into practicing any religion is wrong. How is
Shaolin Temple doing this? By making statements like, without Chan one can master shaolin kungfu, etc....

first of all the temple has no mouth with which to speak. "the temple" sounds like its representing the word of all the individuals involved in it, like the many different monks who dont all think alike.

but if you take that idea of chan as i just expressed, then this statement begins to make sense, doesnt it? again, no one is talking belief or religion here. just talking about a state we named "chan".

[Citong Shifu]

Originally Posted by LFJ

but, said and quoted by whom? there's the famous line "tianxia gongfu chu shaolin". (all gongfu comes from shaolin) but there is a following line that is often forgotten, even though its importance is far greater. that is "shaolin gongfu bian tianxia". (shaolin gongfu spreads throughout the world) and what happens when lineages branch out across the world? of course! some become unassociated, and things change.

but, i could understand maybe if its said because their gongfu evolves into something not practiced at the temple. it would be some sort of offshoot, i guess. if you wanted to be technical. its not shaolin if its not developed by those in shaolin... ?

and as for not being a chan practitioner- well, you may not be a disciple of true gongfu if that is defined as a physical expression of chan. then you'd just be a martial artist. and we all know there are many great martial artists in the world.




well, to be literal, the word "chan" refers to a deep state of meditation. once entered anything will be an expression of it. (going back to "real gongfu") but

basically, chan in itself never indicates philosophy. chan is unique in that it does not require a belief or any written word to be followed. therefore, so long as one can find a way to reach a state of what we call "chan", then it doesnt matter what your religion may be.

like i said, shi suxi told shi xinghong nothing about religion or philosophy. he simply told him about his state of mind not being quiet enough.



first of all the temple has no mouth with which to speak. "the temple" sounds like its representing the word of all the individuals involved in it, like the many different monks who dont all think alike.

but if you take that idea of chan as i just expressed, then this statement begins to make sense, doesnt it? again, no one is talking belief or religion here. just talking about a state we named "chan".

LFJ, When explained like that it makes alot of sense. One of the points I was trying to make (according to the teachings passed to me) is, Shaolin kungfu is based on Shaolin philosophy with meditation (Chan) being one aspect. The question is, does one have to convert to Chan in order to complete the meditation or mind training? Absolutely not! My disagreement with Shaolin Temple kungfu delegates today is that one needs only to follow Shaolin philosophy in order to become skilled in the Shaolin martial arts... I understand that China/Shaolin wants to spread Buddhism throughout the world, this I dont have a problem with. Many cultures have been spreading their religion and beliefs throughout America for years. We're America, we welcome all... The question is, What exactly is Shaolin philosophy if not Buddhism? .

[LFJ]

right. see my signature. its a quote from master shi deyang. it says basically the same thing. gongfu comes from chan. its an expression of chan. but the same can be said for anything including daily chores. but the way one puts on their shoes is vastly different from the way one who is in a state of chan may put on their shoes. see what i mean?

in shaolin, we refer to gongfu as an expression of chan. without that you cant call it gongfu. thats the point. its just plain martial arts movements or techniques. which is fine if thats your goal. but in shaolin, that is not the goal.

through chan, putting on your shoes is not simply putting on your shoes. the intention and the driving force is not impulse. its spontaneous action and reaction through the clear sight of chan-eyes.

its completely different though it may look the same. thats why we say you cant call it real gongfu if it doesnt come through chan.

but it is also very important to remember that this has nothing to do with religion, per se. its a state of mind. a flat heart does not float into the sky. it stays grounded.

shi yanming, for example has many disciples who are of different religions! thats something to think about. they are disciples of chan yet do not have to change their own religious beliefs. that is definitely not a requirement.

chan may be a requirement for true gongfu. but buddhism is not.

[GeneChing]

I've always believed that there is a philosophy intrinsic in the practice of Shaolin. It's not at all like Master Po laying down some words of wisdom between lessons. It's built into the very movements. Philosophy need not be transmitted via word or sutra. That was the whole Buddha/Kasyapa flower trip. Bodhidharma is attributed to have disregarded sutra as well. Chan isn't necessarily held in words. Words may be the most literal way to attempt transmission, in a very literal sense, but it's definitely not the only way.

That being said, consider Taguo, the largest school at Shaolin, which some say reached a student body peak of 19,000 a few years ago. Taguo is putting out more Shaolin trained masters than anywhere. The headmasters are the Liu Clan. If you look at my article, 13,000 Warriors of Taguo (which for some mysterious reason is not listed in the online table of contents for Shaolin Special 2003), I interview Taguo's founder Grandmaster Liu Baoshan. He's been a card-carrying communist since 1952. So Shaolin's largest academy isn't under Buddhist supervision at all. Quite to the contrary. Nevertheless, the Liu family have been folk Shaolin masters for seven generations.

One of the fundamental teachings of Buddhism is to never be possessive of the teachings. This gets a little sticky with layman and folk transmission, but really only if your overly possessive of things like the name Shaolin. Yongxin's effort to control the Shaolin name is very complicated. Of course, he has a very close relationship with Taguo, and to the best of my knowledge, he hasn't shut down any of Taguo's students from advertising their schools as Shaolin derived. In America, he hasn't made any attempt to shut down Shaolin schools. You'd think, given Yanming's transgressions, Yongxin might have acted, but he didn't. He even had audiences with Yanming when he returned to Shaolin. (I should note that I mean the NY Yanming; there is now a CA Yanming at my school - see our Shaolin Special 2007B for details ) . I know he went after some European schools, but that seemed more like PRC politricks bubbling over into foreign soils. Has he gone after any Shaolin schools that were not from the Dengfeng area yet? He's also gone after the performance tours pretty heavily, although there are still many unofficial tours on stage outside China.

It's all about Chan. But what is Chan?

[Citong Shifu]

Originally Posted by GeneChing

I've always believed that there is a philosophy intrinsic in the practice of Shaolin. It's not at all like Master Po laying down some words of wisdom between lessons. It's built into the very movements. Philosophy need not be transmitted via word or sutra. That was the whole Buddha/Kasyapa flower trip. Bodhidharma is attributed to have disregarded sutra as well. Chan isn't necessarily held in words. Words may be the most literal way to attempt transmission, in a very literal sense, but it's definitely not the only way.

That being said, consider Taguo, the largest school at Shaolin, which some say reached a student body peak of 19,000 a few years ago. Taguo is putting out more Shaolin trained masters than anywhere. The headmasters are the Liu Clan. If you look at my article, 13,000 Warriors of Taguo (which for some mysterious reason is not listed in the online table of contents for Shaolin Special 2003), I interview Taguo's founder Grandmaster Liu Baoshan. He's been a card-carrying communist since 1952. So Shaolin's largest academy isn't under Buddhist supervision at all. Quite to the contrary. Nevertheless, the Liu family have been folk Shaolin masters for seven generations.

One of the fundamental teachings of Buddhism is to never be possessive of the teachings. This gets a little sticky with layman and folk transmission, but really only if your overly possessive of things like the name Shaolin. Yongxin's effort to control the Shaolin name is very complicated. Of course, he has a very close relationship with Taguo, and to the best of my knowledge, he hasn't shut down any of Taguo's students from advertising their schools as Shaolin derived. In America, he hasn't made any attempt to shut down Shaolin schools. You'd think, given Yanming's transgressions, Yongxin might have acted, but he didn't. He even had audiences with Yanming when he returned to Shaolin. (I should note that I mean the NY Yanming; there is now a CA Yanming at my school - see our Shaolin Special 2007B for details ) . I know he went after some European schools, but that seemed more like PRC politricks bubbling over into foreign soils. Has he gone after any Shaolin schools that were not from the Dengfeng area yet? He's also gone after the performance tours pretty heavily, although there are still many unofficial tours on stage outside China.

It's all about Chan. But what is Chan?

Thanks Gene and LFJ,
This is what I was getting at the whole time, with a few extras . I needed other members to bring this material up so it didn't sound like it was just me or my opinion. I see your point about Yongxin and his actions (as well as the taguo), but as you've stated this is a very sticky subject. There are things that can and can't be done concerning Yongxin and the Taguo, as well as Yanming (NYC) and some of the others. I'm really glad that Shaolin's evolving, really. I just think Yongxin or Shaolin delegates should express a little more caution when explaining Shaolin and its kungfu's true intention when targeting the public or layperson. It can be rather confusing to someone who has no real knowledge on this subject.. Know what I mean... Heck, how many times have your heard this same argument, many times. Why? Because its not being made clear. I will always help support Shaolin kungfu and promote the Shaolin arts, regardless of my feelings. Hopefully, that will be good enough...

CS (Ron)

[GeneChing]

Shaolin has become much more active in Buddhist rituals recently. It's all fulfillment of the promise Shi Yongxin made when he took abbacy. We've reported on some of the non-martial, strictly-Buddhist events and activities that Shaolin has participated in of late, both here on the forum and in Kung Fu Tai Chi. In fact, our next issue (Nov Dec 2009) has a short news piece on another Buddhist event that's just about to conclude at Shaolin Temple right now - the China Shaolin Chan Debate 100 Day Summit. In general, the press is more focused on Shaolin's martial aspect, so I was amused to find the article below on today's newsfeed. I'll compile more here, if I find more.

Chinese Bhikkhus to participate in Norochcholai ceremony
Wasantha RAMANAYAKE

A traditional Buddhist religious ceremony with the participation of Shaolin Buddhist monks from China will be held on August 20 marking the erection of the roof over the main building housing generators of the Norochcholai Coal fired power plant, a Power and Energy Ministry official said.

The Chief Prelates of the Malwatte and Asgiriya Chapters and Ramannya Nikaya will also participate in the religious ceremonies, the spokesman said.

Power and Energy Minister W. D. J. Senevirathne, Power Minister Mahindananda Aluthgamage and Buddhist Affairs Minister Pandu Bandaranayake will participate.

Quoting the Chinese Construction Company official, the spokesman said a Buddha statue of the Shaolin tradition will be installed at the power plant premises.

The completion of the construction of the main building would mark the end of the main civil engineering work.

Other construction work would be completed by the beginning of next year.

He said that the construction of the second and third phases of the power plant would also begin in October this year and is expected to be completed by 2012. He said the total cost of the project would exceed $ 1,346 million, funded mainly by China.

[David Jamieson]

What is Ch'an?

Buddha:

"A statement concerning birth is no statement concerning birth; a statement concerning eternity is no statement concerning eternity."

so, apparently Ch'an is taoism.

[GeneChing]

Sri Lanka politics? There's some historical precedence for Shaolin monks as 'emissaries' in this fashion, perhaps?

Chinese influence on the rise
Sutirtho Patranobis, Hindustan Times
Colombo, September 30, 2009
First Published: 00:07 IST(30/9/2009)
Last Updated: 00:12 IST(30/9/2009)

Readers of this column were recently privy to the critical piece of information that I was looking for an apartment. Well, I found one and moved too.

My former apartment is now rented to a Chinese professional.

Real estate broker Anton said that the current surge in the otherwise dull, drooping property market in Colombo is from China. “In last six months, I had at least 60 Chinese clients; both families and bachelors. Many (of them) are working in Norochcholai,’’ he said.

China is a building a 900 MW coal-based power plant in Norochcholai. At the ceremony to mark the end of the first phase, 50 Chinese Buddhist monks and martial art masters were flown in from Shaolin Temple.

The Galle Face Green, a promenade with centuries of history and heritage, is both the lungs and heart of Colombo.

These days, the road next to it has become an exhibition ground for Chinese technology. Over 100 bull dozers, earth excavators and rollers are on display.

But I am not unduly worried about the rising strategic Chinese influence in Sri Lanka. I mean, India too has presence in a port and a power plant project in east.

All I long for is some authentic Chinese influence in food; not the saccharine lemon chicken or the flame-throwing shredded chilli pork served in most Chinese restaurants in Colombo.

A couple of Cantonese chefs and a small loan from the Exim Bank of China could cook up some nice recipes easily. And my readers would be the first to know.

[RenDaHai]

Wushu can be taught, Religion can be taught, Neither kung fu nor zen can be taught. They come from your personal practice and contemplation.

One does not have to have ever heard of zen or of kung fu to be a master of both zen and kung fu or either.

Zen is not some religion that people can convert to.



By the way anyone been to shaolin recently? Yong Xin put a !@£$%^& coffee shop INSIDE the temple!! It has wireless internet for gods sake!

[sha0lin1]

I was there in June. Don't remember a coffee shop. We would have killed for some coffee.

[RenDaHai]

Its on the right side of the entrance, It is actually a tea house but inside is done up all modern. They do coffee as well. It leads into the new shopping area inside the hall of steles. where they sell unique shaolin merchandise, even expensive shoes specialy branded shaolin, clothes, lots of books and all kinds of other stuff (even a shaolin brand meditation tent). TO the left of the temple is the new shaolin medicine shop, that is actually pretty cool. If you want to get into the temple you can simply walk in through the medicine shop or the tea house for free! At least you could last year, december was the last time I went inside, I live in Kaifeng now.

As much as i hate it being inside the temple the new little shopping area actually sells some pretty cool stuff, and some good books that you can only buy in that one gift shop, only after going inside shaolin si. If you missed it you missed out on some good souvenirs.

[GeneChing]

There used to be a French pastry & coffee shop past just before the Aviary. I only remember that being there for a year or two. They had decent coffee, or so I'm told. I never tried it. That was independent however - privately owned - and it was removed early during the relocation.

Shaolin has its official line of tea. We used to carry it here. In fact, I have some of the containers right next to me on my desk. Some of the tea boxes were absolutely gorgeous.

There used to be a vegetarian restaurant for the public inside Shaolin Temple. That's actually fairly common in Buddhist temples. I never ate there either.

I need to get back to Shaolin. It's been too long since I've been there.