Is Kiu Sau Bridging and Two Man Forms Worthless ?

[Firehawk4]

Just wondering what peoples opinions are on Kiu Sau Bridging , Chi Sao , and Two Man Forms do they work agianst Boxers, Muay Thai Boxers , and Mixed Martial Artist ? I have herd a few people with alot of experience who are Sifu s of Kung Fu systems say it dont work for instance it was said that Wong Yan Lam of Lama Kung Fu went around the bridges because Chinese boxers in the early 1900 s had trouble bridgeing with Western Boxers .

[The Xia]

I'll take a guess at what a summary of all the responses might look like.
"They work!"
"No they don't!"
"Kung Fu sucks!"
"No it doesn't!"
"MMA sucks!"
"No it doesn't!"
"Real Kung Fu looks like MMA!"
"No it doesn't!"

Did I miss anything?

[Shaolinlueb]

useless? depends on the teacher. 90% of the teachers out there make it repetative moves that dont teach you sheice.

[TenTigers]

in other words,
the techniques are fine.
The teachers are useless.

[monji112000]

I have herd a few people with a lot of experience who are Sifu s of Kung Fu systems say it dont work for instance it was said that Wong Yan Lam of Lama Kung Fu went around the bridges because Chinese boxers in the early 1900 s had trouble bridging with Western Boxers .

I believe you miss-understand what context means. Thats like saying a tire donut is useless because when my batter died It was useful. Different “styles” and “cultures” fight differently. Bridging isn't as easy with boxers. Too many reasons to explain... That doesn't mean you can't bridge. Its not what you want to do its what your opponent will let you do. You may want to punch him... but kicking him is a better option.. ect.. Chi sao is 100% applicable to fighting people.. you just have to understand how to apply it. Thats not easy.
Some basic commonality exists between every person...
For example: In my experience and many other people MOST PEOPLE will go for bear hugs (not single leg and double leg takedowns) and wide hooks. WHY? They are drunk, or don't have martial arts experience. Allot of people like to sucker punch. I don't believe that everyone will pull some mayweather boxing on you... but don't expect someone to just post his hand and let you bridge... its not going happen.

Why am I bothering... if you really have to ask something like this.. then...

[Mr Punch]

Originally Posted by The Xia

I'll take a guess at what a summary of all the responses might look like.
"They work!"
"No they don't!"
"Kung Fu sucks!"
"No it doesn't!"
"MMA sucks!"
"No it doesn't!"
"Real Kung Fu looks like MMA!"
"No it doesn't!"

Did I miss anything?

You forgot the other pattern, based on this:

Originally Posted by Shaolinlueb

useless? depends on the teacher. 90% of the teachers out there make it repetative moves that dont teach you sheice.

"90% of kung fu isn't taught properly - if it is bridging works"
"but yours is? let's see video of you using it against real live resisting opponents/pro boxers/skilled grapplers/prehistoric killer penguins!"
"I don't have a video camera all the time/ever/I can't vid my secret techs/my sifu isn't interested in publicity/proving himself"
"ha ha, kung fu sucks!"
"No it doesn't!"
"MMA sucks!"
"No it doesn't!"
"Real Kung Fu looks like MMA!"

There is the third KFO option:

"bridging works fine"
"not against grapplers"
"but I'll keep it standing, because my bridging works fine"
"but 90% of fights go to the ground"
"but my bridging works fine so mine doesn't"
"have you tried it against a real live skilled grappler?"
"no, but my kung fu bridging is about sensitivity so all of your jyiuuujyitsoo techs are contained in my bridging anyway"
"how do you know?"
"because CMA must have had grappling"
"ha ha kung fu sucks...!"
"No it doesn't!"
"MMA sucks!"
"No it doesn't!"
"Real Kung Fu looks like MMA!"
"No it doesn't!"

ad infinitum, ad nauseam.

[sunfist]

Originally Posted by Firehawk4

Just wondering what peoples opinions are on Kiu Sau Bridging , Chi Sao , and Two Man Forms do they work agianst Boxers, Muay Thai Boxers , and Mixed Martial Artist ? I have herd a few people with alot of experience who are Sifu s of Kung Fu systems say it dont work for instance it was said that Wong Yan Lam of Lama Kung Fu went around the bridges because Chinese boxers in the early 1900 s had trouble bridgeing with Western Boxers .

If you ignore what they are saying and keep training how you are training, you can become a perfectly passable, but ultimately not highly capable, martial artist.

If every time your 'betters' tell you a certain (established) technique or tactic is wrong, you immediately avoid it, you can still become a perfectly passable, if not highly capable, martial artist.

If you want to become anything more than mediorce, then while both the opinions of those more experienced than yourself are a valuable guide, and orthodox methods are considered orthodox for many reasons, you still need to ultimately answer the question for yourself.

The short version of this is as follows: Think for yourself, and if this question is really bothering you then why havent you got your ass to a boxing gym already to find out?

[TenTigers]

going around bridges is practiced by many arts, as well as bridging. This is not a new concept, nor does only one system have the monopoly on it. The problem is that many have not either been taught this, or have not taken the time to develop it within themselves. In this day, tooo many people are coddled to the point that they need to be spoon-fed, otherwise they will simply sit there, thoughtless.
I have two teachers, one in Hung Kuen, the other in SPM. Both teachers have similar approaches.
The Hung Kuen Sifu will discuss something, or show a technique during a converstaion, pretty much mentioning it briefly. However, he fully expects me to take it and practice it, as he will suddenly bring it up again the next week, or weeks later out of the blue, to see if I had practiced.
The SPM Sifu lets me struggle and struggle with a technique, or concept, until like a koan, the answer unfolds through self-discovery.
To some, it may seem archaic, but for me, I have never grown so much, both in skill and understanding. Understanding not only TCMA, but my own inner workings. But I digress...
Bottom line-you can take everything at face value. The words of the old-skool, or nu (old) skool. When all is said and done, they are saying the same thing. Get out there, practice, experiment-using yourself as the lab, THINK.

[mantis108]

Personally, to say that Kiu Sau and 2 men forms are worthless is like saying that technique break downs (on step drills) and slow roll in BJJ are worthless. Those are mean for the exponents of the styles to get the fundamentals of the styles down in a clear and definitive way besides the reference point and line familiarization purposes. That's what give shapes to styles.

A fruit baring tree doesn't look like the seed that it once was. Is the seed useless then?

Sure most TCMA styles nowaday are like the tree don't bare fruits. But it's because they don't encourage "randori" or free sparring training as fertilizer, but it's not like we can't add that to the mix. Take that extra step and it will be fruitful.

Mantis108

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

or show a technique during a converstaion, pretty much mentioning it briefly. However, he fully expects me to take it and practice it, as he will suddenly bring it up again the next week, or weeks later out of the blue, to see if I had practiced.

The words of the old-skool, or nu (old) skool. When all is said and done, they are saying the same thing. Get out there, practice, experiment-using yourself as the lab, THINK.

Reply]
You know, if this is all you are going to get from a teacher then how is this better than you and your buddies learning from a book or video?

In fact, a book or video will allow you to repeatedly go back to the source info and give you a better more thorough understanding because of the consistent available reference and repetition....over a teacher who just shows it in passing and expects you to just *Get It* enough to practice it right, after just briefly showing a technique during a conversation.

[TenTigers]

because, once I "get it" and I show it to them , They then proceed to build upon it and bring me to another level. Videos cannot do this. Videos cannot tell you if you are wrong. Videos do not transmit through direct hands on touch. And your friends know as much as you, so where does that lead you? I am sorry that my words cannot explain this adequately. It's like trying to describe what chocolate tastes like. Heck, Eddie Van Halen describes his guitar tone as the "Brown Sound," like wtf does that mean?

[TenTigers]

back on topic-can you bridge a boxer?
yeah.
Then again, what is your definition of bridge? If it means standing in a side horse and extending a tensioned kiu-sao, etc. Well, no, of course not, silly. Now go and shoot your teacher.
Bridge is simply a connection. Hands, feet,intent, meet, it is a bridge. Clinching is a bridge,jamming is a bridge, crowding is a bridge, do I have to break down every permutation of this?
Can you use chi-sao against a boxer? Yeppers like peppers. BUT-if you are thinking about going in there and rolling, or arm-clinging? Load up, fire away, shoot your teacher.
Chi-sao develops touch sensitivity for ONE SPLIT-SECOND IN TIME. You touch my hand,arm, shoulder, whatever, and I will roll, run,press,or hit when there is no opposition-thrust forward when the hand is free.
Can you use trapping against a boxer? uh, yea-ah (Friends tone) BUT..if you are thinking of crossing his jab over his rear hand, or some dumbsh!t like that, you deserve the punch that will follow. Lock n' Load...
Is a clinch a trap? Is draping over his guard a trap? Certainly.
Don't look for textbook,picture perfect exact definitions, look for the underlying concept, and take it from there.
I apologize to any Sifu who might have taken offense at my attempt at sarcastic humor, in telling the student to shoot his teacher. For all those teachers that fully understand these simple ideas and just have stupid students, my sympathy goes out to you. Now go and shoot your stupid students.

Disclaimer: The above post and statements were not to be taken seriously and were said in a sarcastic, and humorous tone. Any shooting of ones teacher, or students, as a result of reading above post, is the soley an act of God, according to the laws of natural selection. Darwin Awards will be handed out posthumously.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

because, once I "get it" and I show it to them , They then proceed to build upon it and bring me to another level. Videos cannot do this. Videos cannot tell you if you are wrong. Videos do not transmit through direct hands on touch

Reply]
Yeah, but you said he barely gives instruction, like just in passing during a conversation, and then WEEKS go by without any feed back. Now you are saying he has to see that you have managed to "Get It" on your own before he comes in and offeres any coaching or teaching.

So for the last 3 weeks (or how ever long it takes you to figure it out yourself and not need him) you have been doing it wrong, not knowing it and have now trained errors into yourself that have to be undone.

And what if you never "Get it"...is he going to just wait, and wait, and wait while you reinvent the wheel yourself??

It's about as inefficient as you can get. You would be better off NOT learning anything about it until you can be taught properly. Enough with this "Prove yourself" crap. He either accepts you as his student, or he doesn't. How many times do you have to "Prove yourself"?

You don't see any nonsense like this in an MMA school...they just teach and hold nothing back. Which is precisely why a 6 month MMA student can usually pound the snot out of a 3 year Kung Fu student.

You would be better off if he was TEACHING you thourally and correctly the first time, instead of blowing it off. At least that way you will have the PROPER foundation in the techniques principals right away. Heck, with that you can ascend to higher levels of it on your own, but to make you foolishly struggle for an extended period of time where you "May, or May not" eventually "Get it" is just plain BAD teaching.

A book or video would show it in detail (Which you don't get from your teacher), and you have the option of going back over, and over again as needed. With your friends doing the same thing, and double checking against your interpretations, you will get far closer to being right than the way your teacher does it. The book/Video is offering far more info than your teacher does.

Personally, I wouldn't waste my time with a teacher who's teaching ability is out done by a book.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Videos cannot tell you if you are wrong. Videos do not transmit through direct hands on touch

Reply]
No, but your friends who are also watching the video can by comparing what you do, to the book, or video. Through a process of going back and forth and consistent and detailed examination for a few weeks, you and your partners will get it pretty darn good...where as the guys who got the brief momentary scrap from your teacher will still be fumbling around in the dark, probably get it wrong, and will need to be retaught, IF they ever figured it out close enough for him to bother in the first place.

Like I said above, if I had a teacher who's teaching skills were out done by a book or video, I'd find someone else.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally Posted by TenTigers

in other words,
the techniques are fine.
The teachers are useless.

yes, because they can not properly translate and transmit their martial arts to their students. or they don't care anymore and just want the money.

the teacher could be awesome at martial arts, but if you can't teach. then don't teach. you are fooling yourself and your students . as a successful school owner and teacher you should know that it isn't easy and not everyone can do it.

a teacher doesn't know everything in martial arts, they can't. there is too much. i am always looking up and reading stuff to find answers. always watching demo's and see how some of these master's move to understand body movement and connectivity. if i don't know the answer i don't make up something i say i will get back to you.


so is bridging useless? no, it has its purpose. if it was useless I am sure they wouldn't have come up with the concept and kept using it. other styles do bridging too. someone on here was talking about bridging in boxing i believe.

2 man forms? if done right, and you treat each attack as a real attack, and each block as a real block. you are getting something out of it. if you are moving your hands cause your teacher says so, you should pay me cause i can do the same.

i love 2 man sets, but one of my "things" about them, is the emphasis on the traditional. i believe in practicing traditional 2 man sets along with more modern.
by traditional i hope everyone knows what i means. in some sets you have big circular arm blocks, leaving yourself open to get to the next move, etc. i can go on. i think everyone knows what i am talking about.
by a modern fight set, i mean, keeping the gaurd up, less emphasis on the stance, but mechanics in there to show you how to use them in a "modern situation", making it more of something you would encounter on the street instead of 16th century china.


don't turn this into an mma vs tcma thread.

mma after 6 months i can do this, yeah we all get it.