Do you think Yue Fei really created Eagle Claw?

[ghostexorcist]

I haven’t seen any real historical evidence which supports the claim that Yue Fei created Eagle Claw or the more specific yī bǎi ling bā qín ná (一百零八擒拿 – “108 China Na”) techniques. As far as I know, it is not mentioned in his historical biography compiled in 1345 during the Yuan Dynasty (although this is not a definitive source on his life as it was written 200 years after his death and because it over exaggerates his military accomplishments). Nor is it mentioned in his fictional biography first written sometime between the years 1661-1735. This version was written from folktales that where popular among the common people for centuries. If Eagle claw was the sh*t during the Song, why wouldn’t it be mentioned in writing centuries later during the early Qing dynasty?

It seems the legend of eagle claw runs almost parallel with that of Xingyi. Both were supposedly created by Yue Fei, disappeared for a time and then reemerged to become popular styles in the Ming and Qing dynasties. (Of course a lot of people will tell you that it was Ji Longfeng or another Muslim master who created Xingyi but that is another thread.) I think there is a very strong chance that it was created centuries after Yue Fei’s death, but attributed to him to give the style some historical weight. (The same could be said with Yue Fei’s association with Fanzi boxing.) I have heard the story of how Monk Lai Chin later combined the 108 locks with Fanzi to create northern eagle claw. I’m sure joint-locking of any kind existed LONG before eagle claw and Yue Fei, so it could be possible, if he really existed, monk Lai Chin just combined a historic joint-locking set with fanzi to create said style. Show me some sort of Song Dynasty record or any kind of record prior to the Ming mentioning Yue Fei and the 108 locks in the same context. If you can, I would really like to have a look at it!

It seems he was constantly on the move during his tenure in the military, either fighting the Liao or the Jin empires. When would he have had the time to create the style? A lot of people think his archery teacher Zhou Tong passed along some "hand techniques" called “Elephant” from Shaolin which Yue Fei synthesized into the 108 locks, but there is no historical material that can prove Zhou Tong was even a Shaolin monk. Yue Fei’s historical biography does not mention Zhou Tong teaching him any kind of boxing styles, just archery! Also, please don’t quote from books by eagle claw master Leung Shum. His books, I think, have perpetuated the idea that Zhou Tong was a Shaolin monk and that Yue Fei created eagle claw. I only want historical evidence. (Don’t be mistaken. I am not dissing master Leung, just the history presented in his books.)

Comments are welcome from people well versed in Chinese martial arts and history, preferably a mix of the two. I’m not trying to be a pr*ck, I’m just interested in finding the “true” history of this wonderful style and not perpetuating blind faith in martial legends.

[bodhitree]

I only stopped by to see if there was a "don't care" option.

[ghostexorcist]

Originally Posted by bodhitree

I only stopped by to see if there was a "don't care" option.

Nope, sorry to disappoint you.

[Shaolinlueb]

as an eagle claw practioner.

i understand yue fie created 108 locking techniques.

monk lai chun put those 108 techniques together with fanzi to create the forms.

so did yue fei really create the style? yes and no. he created the 108 locking techniques. those techniques are the basis of the style and in which were used in all the routines. did he take the time to create all the routines, no. the monk lai chun combined them with a form of fanzi.

eric or julian will answer this better.

[ghostexorcist]

Originally Posted by Shaolinlueb

as an eagle claw practioner.

i understand yue fie created 108 locking techniques.

monk lai chun put those 108 techniques together with fanzi to create the forms.

so did yue fei really create the style? yes and no. he created the 108 locking techniques. those techniques are the basis of the style and in which were used in all the routines. did he take the time to create all the routines, no. the monk lai chun combined them with a form of fanzi.

eric or julian will answer this better.

Perhaps I should redefine my question. I have heard the story that Lai Chin combined the 108 locks with fanzi. Can you show me historical records from the Song Dynasty that mention the 108 joint locks? I practice eagle claw joint locking myself, but I’m I’m afraid there is nothing that supports Yue Fei created it.

[lunghushan]

Of course Yue Fei created Eagle Claw. And Santa's little helpers are busy putting together a Lamborghini for Santa Claus to put under my tree on Christmas night.

[Sal Canzonieri]

First of all, 108 is a symbolic number in chinese, it means many, many, many.
Many CMA forms have 36, 72, and 108 movements.
On a folk level, you hear many Chinese say 36 to mean "many";
72 (36 + 36) means many more, 108 (72 + 36) means many many more.

Nowhere was it historically said the Yue Fei created these 108 locks.

In Shaolin, the eagle claw lock is ONE of many many many found in the Lohan forms.
The movements of this "eagle claw" techinique are very similar to the movements
of Pi, splitting in Xing Yi. They are done almost exactly alike in Shaolin Lohan and in XY. Photos of this were shown in past issues of Gene's Wushu Kung Fu Tai Chi magazine. The movements step by step was shown a few years back in one of their Shaolin issues that showed the Xiao Lohan form and others.
Both in XY and Shaolin Lohan the fist curves in and up with the pinky side up UNDER the Chin and then out, which makes a very effective join lock.

Sun Lu Tang attributed the origin of this XY movement to Yue Fei, which he said originally comes from Shaolin.

Whoever spread the story that Yue Fei's teacher learned from Shaolin, or learned Shaolin martial arts (not necessarily that he learned there), made people associated the techniques coming from Yue Fei. The general conjecture around the time of the Taiping Rebellion was that Fan Zi has it origins in Shaolin martial arts, and from it comes the legend that Zhou Tong was the founder of Fan Zi (or Ba Shan Fan as it was originally called). When legends developed that said Zhou TOng was Yue Fei's teacher, then all these techiniques that supposedly came from Zhou Tong's supposed Shaolin origin were attributed to Yue Fei as well.

I think that it was the person that spread fantzi / chuo jiao combined style throughout China during the mid and late 1800s, who was ex-Taiping Rebellion Zhao Canyi, who told different people from different areas a different name for himself. Anyways, HE is the most likely the source of all the Zhou Tong talk of him being founder of the style, and this Zhao Canyi did a lot of Shaolin.

According to what he was telling people, Fantzi and Chuojiao were ancient Sung Dynasty styles that influenced what the soldiers in Yue Fei's army practiced. Fantzi and the Yue Jia Quan that was derived from it spread all over China to Henan province. Yue Jia Quan was derived from Ba Shan Fan (Fantzi Quan) and Liu He Quan was derived from Yue Jia Quan. Over time this was forgotten and Yue Fei himself was considered the founder of not only Yue Jia Quan, but Liuhe Quan and which led to the legend that Yue Fei was the ancestral founder of Liuhe Quan, which led to Xingyi Quan, but also that Yue Fe became considered the founder of Fantzi itself, though it predated him, which in turn led to the legend that Yue Fei created Eagle claw, another style that was derived from Fantzi.

Fantzi Quan and Xin Yi Quan share many postures, movements, and martial theories, because the martial and legendary evolution from Fantzi to Yue Fei Jia Quan to Liuhe Quan can be traced in Henan Province showing that Fantzi was the ancestral root that influenced the development of Henan XinyYi Quan, ending with the story that Yue Fei was the founder of Xingyi Quan.

[ghostexorcist]

Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri

First of all, 108 is a symbolic number in chinese, it means many, many, many.
Many CMA forms have 36, 72, and 108 movements.
On a folk level, you hear many Chinese say 36 to mean "many";
72 (36 + 36) means many more, 108 (72 + 36) means many many more.

Nowhere was it historically said the Yue Fei created these 108 locks.

That is a very good point about the symbology of 108. I have read about this myself in my own studies.

Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri

When legends developed that said Zhou TOng was Yue Fei's teacher, then all these techiniques that supposedly came from Zhou Tong's supposed Shaolin origin were attributed to Yue Fei as well.

Zhou Tong was mentioned in Yue Fei’s historical biography compiled in 1345, but I understand what you are saying.

It just seems that Yue Fei did not create a single boxing style. He was just a superior general and was able to push his troops to victory. Because of this and his martyr’s death, many styles were attributed to him. However, I don’t doubt his troops were drilled in Shuai Jiao throwing and weapons, the regular military training of the day.

Yue Fei’s historical biography only mentions how good an archer he was--like drawing a bow of 300 catties (300 lbs +). I always thought the legendary grip of eagle claw could have originally come from training the hands with a strong bow. Pulling a bow of that weight would have asserted a superhuman strain on the fingers and forearms, creating a powerful grip. However, this is just a puerile fancy and chances are the 300 catty bow was just an over exaggeration of his martial skills. I’m not claiming any of this to be true.

I would also like to ask that everyone who votes on the poll leave a comment and visa versa.

[Wong Ying Home]

My only addition to the comments made thus far, is that the word or character translated as elephant boxing is probabaly incorrect and that the character should be read as imitation and not elephant.

An amount of research has allready been undertaken in Hebei province this year with regard to eagle claw and further will completed in 2007

[ghostexorcist]

Originally Posted by Wong Ying Home

My only addition to the comments made thus far, is that the word or character translated as elephant boxing is probabaly incorrect and that the character should be read as imitation and not elephant.

An amount of research has allready been undertaken in Hebei province this year with regard to eagle claw and further will completed in 2007

Just for clarification:

In Chinese, elephant is pronounced Xiàng (象). However, the same character can also mean "shape, form, or appearance". The elephant style in question is a mistranslation of xiang, which actually refers to Xiang Xing Quan (象形拳 - "Imitation Boxing"), a fighting technique which emphasizes the imitation of the offensive and defensive actions of a certain animal or person.

Any animal fighting style fits into this category (eagle, tiger, mantis, monkey, crane, whatever). I added the above to wikipedia's crappy eagle claw article some time ago.

If someone would like to read more on Zhou Tong (a.k.a. Jow Tong), Yue Fei's archery teacher, go HERE!. I wrote this page using many sources. But I don't consider it "definitive" in anyway. It's just a collection of the historic and fictional accounts of Zhou Tong's life.

[ngokfei]

Mr Henning has also done a brief intro to Yue Fei in the "Journal of Asian Martial Arts Volume 15, Number 4 (now on the newstands)

I don't think you'll ever find evidence that you are looking for regarding Yue Fei's Martial Arts background. It just wasn't important to the biographers of the time.

Look the USA is just over 200 years old and still there are alot of facts missing about the "founding fathers".

IMO the style is a mix of many different martial arts teachings bridging from pre Sung Dynasty to the modern period.

Sal has done intense research as a martial artist and historian to unearth facts as well as theories and opinions on the origins of said styles and how they fit into todays existing styles/systems.

Its all good. I've devoted 10 years of research into the styles history, lineage and I think that has been enough time (wong ying can confer ) so my time is better put into understanding the founding principles and theories of what we have to day which has been given the name "Ying Jow Pai/Moon".

[Sal Canzonieri]

What I have come away with after researching Yue Fei is that
whatever is attributed to Yue Fei is actually better said
as Yue Fei Jia Quan, the Yue Fei FAMILY of martial arts.

It's pretty clear to me that Yue Fei Jia Quan evolved from military martial arts of the Song Dynasty.

These martial arts, when you look at Yue Fei Jia Quan techniques,
appear to be derived from Fan Zi / Chuo Jiao, eventually Fan Zi/Yue Jia Quan ideas (5 elements, etc) attached themselves in Henan province to 6 Harmony Xin Yi Quan.

For you Eagle Claw people, I will post later today my notes on who exactly in the early days of the style did what to bring in the idea that Yue Fei was the founder.
It's been a game of telephone. I spent a lot of time tracing it, so enjoy the valuable information to your style's history.
Bear in mind that we are talking about Hebei province Eagle Claw from the Liu (Lao) family, not the ancient Eagle Claw that is still done at Shaolin, which has a distant relationship to Hebei Fanzi Eagle Claw far far back.

[SifuAbel]

You need to add a third option to the poll.

3. I don't care.

[lkfmdc]

I guess it's time to fess up, I used my "way back" machine to go back in time and I am the one who created it.....

ANd since I like elephants, that is what I named the style

[ghostexorcist]

Originally Posted by SifuAbel

You need to add a third option to the poll.

3. I don't care.

It's a yes or no poll. If you don’t care, don’t leave a comment.