Stepping 'back'.

[Metal Dragon]

Originally Posted by AmanuJRY

Interesting. With all the talk about 'control' - centerline control, hand/arm control, etc. - I haven't seen anyone mention control of balance.

Controlling your own balance - i.e. good footwork, body control, coordination, etc.

Controlling your opponent's balance - everything from destroying your opponent's base (low kicking, knees), to uprooting someone (like in chi sau) and grappling...all techniques that attack the balance of your opponent.

That’s because their busy stepping backwards, you can’t control anything going backwards. You can’t keep your balance while someone has a good bridge when stepping backwards, if he is smart, he will crowd your space if you step backwards, keeping you fighting defensively therefore chasing hands.

It’s the matter of two large blocks, that has boundary line that protect their space, but with a neutral zone like hockey (only one foot moves backwards or forward within the neutral zone more like pivoting on one foot, like in basketball). It’s only two people in this situation. In battle the swords and shields will clash in the heat of combat, if you don’t hold the line, then the army will brake through. If you are there to fight then fight or lose your line (forward momentum). And be prepared to be on the defensive most of the time, which is a bad place to be.

Stepping back shows lack of confidence or unwillingness within the decision to make combat. Save your time or even your life and just run away.

[Mr Punch]

Originally Posted by AmanuJRY

Interesting. With all the talk about 'control' - centerline control, hand/arm control, etc. - I haven't seen anyone mention control of balance.

How exactly would you like to relate this to the question about stepping back. Was I rash in assuming that in any and every aspect of footwork control of balance is a must?

Originally Posted by Metal Dragon

That’s because their busy stepping backwards, you can’t control anything going backwards.

Nonsense sir. Train harder. I've controlled boxers coming forward stepping back with wing chun hands, and thai boxers too, in my MMA school. Of course, if you don't practice stepping back, you won't have any control.

Originally Posted by Metal Dragon

You can’t keep your balance while someone has a good bridge when stepping backwards, if he is smart, he will crowd your space if you step backwards, keeping you fighting defensively therefore chasing hands.

Of course, if he has a good bridge, but then if he is better than you... you're in trouble anyway! And who's to say you can't keep hitting centre mass off the back foot when stepping back? Why would you have to be chasing hands? Because you haven't trained for this simple situation of being forced back maybe?

Originally Posted by Metal Dragon

Stepping back shows lack of confidence or unwillingness within the decision to make combat. Save your time or even your life and just run away.

You haven't read any of the previous posts detailing why it might be a good idea to step back have you?! Plus you haven't been in any real fights have you, esp one that has required running away...? Of course, running away is very often the best bet, but if you're already engaged how are you just going to run away without presenting your back...? Oh, that's right, you first need to step back and disengage with control!

[Sihing73]

Originally Posted by Metal Dragon

That’s because their busy stepping backwards, you can’t control anything going backwards. You can’t keep your balance while someone has a good bridge when stepping backwards, if he is smart, he will crowd your space if you step backwards, keeping you fighting defensively therefore chasing hands.

Stepping back shows lack of confidence or unwillingness within the decision to make combat. Save your time or even your life and just run away.

Hello,

I love those who believe in absolutes as they can be so much fun to play with
Balance is an important issue and should be trained and understood. If one has proper structure then one should have balance. Going backwards is perhaps not the most desirible however depending on the situation it may be the most prudent action. Naturally one would not want to get into the habit of going backwards if it can be helped. It is very true that once you are forced to start retreating it is that much harder to regain control and go forward again. Perhaps this is why many would consider it better to step off the line and then resume forward pressure from an angel rather than go straight back.

I dissagree that stepping back alwyas shows a lack of confidence. In some cases it may be a ploy to get the opponent to commit themselves.

As to the idea of absolutes I am reminded of a story concerning a Civil War Calvary Officer who divided his force in the face of superior odds and was able to achieve victory despite ignoring the accepted rules of combat. Perhaps if he had done as "experts" suggested we would have a different USA today.

As the third form teaches there will be times when we get into trouble and make mistakes and need to regroup. Stepping back can be useful for such a situation, to allude that those who step back lack confidence is an unfair assumption as it fails to take all things into consideration. I would be curious to see whether the poster would step back if I were armed with two bolos and coming towards them using a basic sinawali pattern. I am sure I would not mind if they decided to stand their ground and not move back

One of the beauties of forums like this is that it allows the exchange of different views. Not all will be relavent however once must be willing to look beyond their own views in order to possibly glean the jewels of anothers viewpoint.

[Shaolin]

Originally Posted by sihing

One minute/second/nano second you have control the next you don't in the environment of combat (we are talking about two people of equal skills and abilities right? Not one guy so much better than the other, to which is a unscientific way of comparing individuals in combat). That's why it is important to do something while the control is yours, maybe hit, subdue, lock, throw, push, pull, whatever it takes to get the job done. There are no absolutes, just doing what's right at the right time with the tools you have available to you in the situation at hand.

James

Agreed. Think not of control in an absolute, but in general term. I (in general, not me specificly) control putting myself in situations where confrontation is likely to occur. ie. bars, clubs, concerts, high crime sections of a city, etc. I control whether I am oblivious to the world around me or pay attention to my surroundings. I control my emotions and the words I use in a situation to de-escalate it and avoid a physical confrontation. This is just a start. If you wish, substitute the word control for choose or any form of, the concept applies the same. I understand the idea of control being an illusion. We did not choose to be born but we do choose/ control paths to preserve the life given to us. This statement seems to the blind as a hypocrisy but it's not. To use an analogy think of chess, the board is set, it's your choice to play or not. Each piece you move dictates the outcome, but it is still I that controls the pieces.

[Metal Dragon]

Originally Posted by Mr Punch

Nonsense sir. Train harder. I've controlled boxers coming forward stepping back with wing chun hands, and thai boxers too, in my MMA school.

That’s because they didn’t have a clue. If they did, meaning the understanding of bridge contact; if they knew how to establish bridge contact successfully they would have countered your every move, because you had no balance when stepping backwards to stop their forward momentum successfully or to control to anything.

Originally Posted by Mr Punch

if you don't practice stepping back, you won't have any control.

Control of what: yourself? Most defiantly: not your opponent. Now that’s nonsense sir. If you step back and turn, trying to get out of the way from the on-coming assault left or right, when bridge contact is made,"all he has to do is switch hands accordingly (mon sao).

Originally Posted by Mr Punch

Why would you have to be chasing hands? Because you haven't trained for this simple situation of being forced back maybe?

And yes, I have been trained in that situation, if you choose to go to a defensive position first by stepping backwards, just as we agreed about the elbows if they go back “crowding space” same thing with the feet. Stay with what comes and follow what goes, keeping your opponent thinking defensively when bridge contact is made, the feet must follow the hands, not the other way around, and that will happen if your first step is backwards.

[Metal Dragon]

Originally Posted by Sihing73

Hello,

Going backwards is perhaps not the most desirible however depending on the situation it may be the most prudent action. Naturally one would not want to get into the habit of going backwards if it can be helped. It is very true that once you are forced to start retreating it is that much harder to regain control and go forward again.

If you don’t want to make something a habit by all means, stay away from it.
I want tell you to stay away from drugs, while blowing smoke in your face .

Then why bother doing something that will create habits based on the most prudent action; a waste of time, simply when you know it’s wrong, help me understand.

Wouldn’t that be counterproductive slowing down progress?

Wonderful post.

[Sihing73]

Hello Metal Dragon,

What do you need me to explain to you The simple fact is that there will be times when you will need to do something that you may not want to do. In this case we are talking about stepping back, which you seem to think indicates some type of failure on ones part. Tell me, if you and I were to meet and you were say 5'9 and 175lbs and I were 6'8 and 350 lbs and I were to step into you very deeply to your center, would you not step back or away?

Please read my posts carefully and hopefully you will understand me better. As to why train to develope habits based on the most prudent actions; I would say one should never train to develope habits. When one developes habits then one has already locked themselves into a singular course of action. Rather I would rather spend my time developing attributes, specifically as to dealing with the energy being presented by the opponent. In this way I can adjust according to what is given and I can remain fluid. Whereas if I developed habits then I would become static and predictable.

All of us are human and can and will make mistakes. Simply put this means that no matter what we train to do there will be times when we are unable to achieve the desired result. The Bui Tze form is full of answers to unfavorable situations, if the possibility of messing up were not important why such a form. Of course, there are other aspects to the form as well.

While stepping back may not be what one wants to do, to state that one would never step back shows a lack of real life experience, IMHO. How ofter do you drive a car in reverse, but it is still something you must learn to do in order to be a well rounded driver.

[Metal Dragon]

Originally Posted by Sihing73

Hello Metal Dragon,
What do you need me to explain to you The simple fact is that there will be times when you will need to do something that you may not want to do. In this case we are talking about stepping back, which you seem to think indicates some type of failure on ones part.

How so true; but however when one knows that something is wrong as well as the other person does, and it’s not corrected or nothing is done about it. Then there is a failure on ones part, due to the fact that the problem was not erased or removed from the warriors mind, then he will carry that same mistake with him to the battle field. When the warrior knows it not correct, he will be shamed in combat. So why bother. I don’t get it; why pacify a bad situation?

Originally Posted by Sihing73

Tell me, if you and I were to meet and you were say 5'9 and 175lbs and I were 6'8and 350 lbs and I were to step into you very deeply to your center, would you not step back or away

No! Because a good wing chun practitioner would jam or wedge your forward intent, and not step away, if he does; he will not get a jump on your offensive our defensive line, and will never controls anyone’s balance. Wing chun should work the same, for everyone, big or small.
Good wing chun is based on positioning, sensitivity, not height or weight.

But you are right, everyone makes mistakes and never would I say other wise.

[Sihing73]

Originally Posted by Metal Dragon

How so true; but however when one knows that something is wrong as well as the other person does, and it’s not corrected or nothing is done about it. Then there is a failure on ones part, due to the fact that the problem was not erased or removed from the warriors mind, then he will carry that same mistake with him to the battle field. When the warrior knows it not correct, he will be shamed in combat. So why bother.

I think where we will have to agree to disagree is that the something in question is indeed "wrong". I believe that there are few things which fall so nicely in place as to be "wrong" all of the time. If such were the case then everyone would be doing essentially the same Wing Chun as the "right" method would easily handle all others. However, this does not seem to be the case. Rather than say something is "wrong", usually because one can not make that method work, it might be better to examine how another can make it work. Perhaps in doing so ones own understanding of their own approach will be enhanced even further. Even Sun Tzu advocated knowing ones enemy; I am sure he could have ignored what he thought was wrong and forged ahead.

Originally Posted by Metal Dragon

No! Because a good wing chun practitioner would jam or wedge your forward intent, and not step away, if he does; he will not get a jump on your offensive our defensive line, and will never controls anyone’s balance. Wing chun should work the same, for everyone, big or small.

A nice thought but a little on the fantasy side. No matter what one wants to believe when two people using essentially the same methods meet, the bigger stronger one will have an advantage, all things being equal or close to equal. FWIW I have trained several much larger people than myself and done okay with them. However, I would never make a blanket statement that a Good WC person would jam or wedge someones forward intent who was much larger than them. As a matter of fact such a response would seem to be more akin to meeting force with force, definitely not a Wing Chun principle. Despite what you may like to believe everyone will have their limits. Don't believe me? Go stand in front of a ford escort on a sharp incline. Stand about 10 feet away and have someone release, not drive just let gravity do the work, the car and let it roll towards you. Now, without losing structure or stepping back I would invite you to Jam or Wedge the car and stop its momentum using Wing Chun techniques. I would invite you to post a video showing this on the forum for the rest of us to see. Or better yet, go find someone who is bigger than you by at least 6" and outweighs you by at least 125 lbs and have them step deeply into you using full force and post the clip of the result here on the board. Againl, you must deal with the opponent without stepping back or away.

[Metal Dragon]

Originally Posted by Sihing73

I think where we will have to agree to disagree........
A nice thought but a little on the fantasy side.

Direct and clean nothing fancy. This is the first thing you learn, far as contact is concerned. The “mon sao” drill, jamming and wedging the upper triangle.

Originally Posted by Sihing73

Or better yet, go find someone who is bigger than you by at least 6" and outweighs you by at least 125 lbs and have them step deeply into you using full force and post the clip of the result here on the board. Againl, you must deal with the opponent without stepping back or away.

Good wing chun is based on positioning, sensitivity, not height or weight.

Originally Posted by Sihing73

I think where we will have to agree to disagree......

You are right.

[Sihing73]

Originally Posted by Metal Dragon

Good wing chun is based on positioning, sensitivity, not height or weight.

While this may be true those that can apply Wing Chun irregardless of the size of their opponent are rare. You allude to the ability to use your structure to jam the opponent irregardless of their size. I would be interested in seeing a clip showing you doing just that to a larger stronger opponent, or with the car as I mentioned. Until then I will remain a skeptic but hey maybe I'm the only one

[Metal Dragon]

Originally Posted by Sihing73

While this may be true those that can apply Wing Chun irregardless of the size of their opponent are rare. You allude to the ability to use your structure to jam the opponent irregardless of their size. I would be interested in seeing a clip showing you doing just that to a larger stronger opponent, or with the car as I mentioned. Until then I will remain a skeptic but hey maybe I'm the only one

This is only hypothetical; I cannot supply real footage. I know that’s not what you want (real footage), you and I know better than that. This is how you drill that understanding into play. It can be done. My teacher showed me footage of his teacher doing the same thing to him, but for real.

This concept works also with hooks upper cuts and so on, as long if you attack the attack by crowding space, this way you can control the offensive and defensive line when bridge contact is made, and automatically take your opponent’s balance away. And will not be on the end of your opponent’s punches, (for those who do understand) where their true power lies


From my understanding you have to have a strong understanding of “mon sao” drills to even get this far as seen on this clip.

Thanks for your interest, take care.

“You can’t always get what you want, but you’ll find sometimes, you get what you need”.

The Stones.

[Phil Redmond]

One of the Wing Chun Kuen Kuits states: go with what comes, follow what goes.
PR

[Metal Dragon]

Originally Posted by Phil Redmond

One of the Wing Chun Kuen Kuits states: go with what comes, follow what goes.
PR

I was taught to stay with what comes, and follow what goes. If I go with what comes, I could never follow again, unless my opponent allows me too.

[AmanuJRY]

Originally Posted by Mr Punch

How exactly would you like to relate this to the question about stepping back. Was I rash in assuming that in any and every aspect of footwork control of balance is a must?

Not at all. Footwork, IMHO, is the foundation of balance (when standing, at least).

Stepping back might occur as a means to recover ones balance or to avoid losing it in the first place. Likewise, stepping back can aid in taking your opponents balance.