Mastering internal arts

Please get some experience in Bagua and Hsing-I beefore you say that it only focuses on one motion. As bagua is known for circle walking, many people who didn't practice it claim to believe that they only concentrate on circular motions. Because in bagua there are MANY exercises also to walk in a linear approach, this is not true. This linear walking is part of basics you don't have to try it long before you find this out. As for Hsing-I, the circular motion is hidden within HOW you perform the linear moves. You have to go a little deeper to find that out.

I can be like one of those philosophers who hide everything in poems, but instead I can tell you the true secret of martial arts in one word:

PRACTICE!

I do read a lot about these things actually

Excerpt from my favourite article on this topic:

"In Taijiquan, the high level fighting technique goal is Kong Dong (empty motion) or Kong Jin (empty force, though not to be confused with Lin Kong Jin, the idea of moving an opponent without touching), which is the most typical feature of Taiji fighting skill. It means to let the opponent feel something he thinks he can get, but cannot really get because it is empty. It should induce in the opponent a surprised and frightened feeling, like when one walks on the top of a high building and suddenly steps on an empty place. Usually the skill is described as "lure in and fill in emptiness." Here "lure in" is a key concept, it is not "force in." The feeling is just like to suddenly appear and/or disappear. One lets the opponent feel something, but get nothing. All Taiji skills should meet this goal. It should follow the basic Taiji principle as Yin and Yang supplement each other and exchange. The technical foundation of Kong Jin is Zhan (adhere up), Nian (stick to), Lian (link), and Sui (follow). If one does not exhibit these attributes, one is not considered to practice Taiji in the right way. In application, changes of Yin-Yang happen on the inside of the touching point between your opponent and you, but your physical body may just show really small even invisible movement.

In Baguazhang, the high level fighting technique goal is Bian Dong (change motion) or Bian Jin (change force), which is the most typical feature of Bagua fighting skill. It means change should happen at any time and anywhere and without the opponent feeling it. Anytime one makes contact with the opponent, change must be done continually until you win.

The change should not let the opponent feel before it really happens. It should induce in the opponent an unsure feeling. The description of Bian Jin is "move then change, change then evolve (turn into), evolution to evolution, never stop." The idea is to use quick and continuous changes to make the opponent lose his concentration and then beat him from his weakness point. Never oppose the opponent’s force with one’s own force directly. One should always change when one’s force meets the opponent’s force. All Bagua skills should meet this goal. It should follow the basic Bagua principle of change. The technical foundation of Bian Jin is Zou (go away), Chuan (pass through), Ning (twisting), and Fan (turn over). Without these attributes, one is not really doing Bagua. In application, a lot of visible changes are made. These changes should be continuous and smooth. Do not let the opponent to feel any change until the changes really happen. The physical changes should follow internal changes.

In Xingyiquan, the high level fighting technique goal is Zhi Dong (straight motion) or Zhi Jin (straight force), which is the most typical feature of Xingyi fighting skill. It means when contact is made with an opponent, use a straight force to cross the opponent’s force and suddenly increase one’s own force. It means to attack the opponent at his weakness point (with proper positioning, timing, and direction), or to use a big and strong power to attack his weakness point directly. One should let the opponent feel one’s power is so strong that he is unable to defend against it. One should never use one’s power to oppose the opponent’s force directly.

Sometimes the outside movement may appear to directly oppose the opponent’s force, but in fact inside one should make a simple change to cut across the opponent’s force. With this change, one will be much stronger than the opponent along this particular force vector. The description of Zhi Jin is "Heng (side to side) defense Shun (straight); and Shun defense Heng." All Xingyi skills should meet this goal and should follow 5 elements principles of creation and destruction. The technical foundation of Zhi Jin is Ci (stamp), Pu (spring on), Guo (wrap up), Shu (tie or bind), Jie (decisive). Without these attributes, one is not really doing Xingyi. In application, the break points of physical movements may be visible but internal change should be smooth. Also, the physical movement changes usually are different from the internal changes. It is called "looks like diagonal but is straight inside; and looks like straight but is diagonal."

The article is at http://www.geocities.com/ycgf/arti_TBX.htm

It is an excellent piece on the three sisters.

Please note - I was not trying to be dismissive of ANY of the internal arts in my earlier post.

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

Xingyiquan seems "almost" to be thought of as a simplistic art and easly mastered according to some on this thread. Xingyiquan on the contrary, in it's complete form is just as complex and complete as Bagua or Taiji. Never underestimate an art or it's complexity, this will lead to underestimating the practioner at hand and only a fool does this.

By even saying an Internal art could be mastered in such and such time, we have errored greatly.
All internal arts are hard to become proficient at, let alone mastering.

All Internal arts are the same. These arts in question lead to the same location. They just take different paths. As far as mastering any internal art, it truly can not be done. There are levels upon levels, as soon as you reach one, another appears on the horizon. This is true no matter who your talking about (Even if we are talking about the old masters).


If you believe you have mastered an art you have only quit learning and your fooling yourself.
If you believe you are proficient in your art you are fooling yourself again. Being proficient is only relative to the one's around you. Someone will come along and reveal your inferiority if you believe yourself proficient. (sooner than later if your the type to go looking for them)

Paul
Michigan

"Mastering any internal art cannot be done.... even if you are talking about the old masters"

OK. If they didn't "master" the art they are hardly "old masters".

I think we are going to have to come to a consensus on what "mastering" an art is.

Referring to webster, I think the following 3 definitions are best....

"a worker or artisan qualified to teach apprentices" (this would be a master blacksmith or master carpenter).

"an artist, performer, or player of consummate skill" (master pianist, master composer)

"a great figure of the past (as in science or art) whose work serves as a model or ideal" (master of mathematics).

I think that in martial circles the first definition is used for anything from a junior-instructor to a teacher (sifu), so is insufficient for master.

The third can only refer to dead people (of the past) and certainly has some odd requirements (their work must serve as a model or ideal) that my make this a poor choice.

Leaving us with the middle, if somewhat nebulous definition.

I remember once what bruce lee had said in his book, not in the exact words: "before martial arts training a punch to me was a punch, when i got into martial arts i thought that a punch wasn't as simple as a punch, and now a punch is a punch to me." He means that you shouldn't take things too deep when you don't need to. (I think)

I can be like one of those philosophers who hide everything in poems, but instead I can tell you the true secret of martial arts in one word:

PRACTICE!

I know you are misquoting and think you are misinterpreting.

Bruce talks about how, before training, punching and kicking are just techniques. Then as you start to train, you find more in the punches and kicks than simple weapons. There is a good deal of sophistication.

Finally, you come to a point where the punching and kicking is, again, just punching and kicking. The fighting occurs through a different mechanism (which I could discuss, but would be presuming on what Bruce actually said) and the punches and kicks are again just tools, as they were in the beginning.

Bruce Lee read a lot about philosophy when he was an undergraduate at the University of Washington. That doesn't mean he understood everything he read (particularly with English as his second language). Lee's metaphor was borrowed from a Zen Buddhist phrase which in turn came from Dogen's writings of the 1200s.

The Zen phrase can be applied to meditation on anything (a flower, your girlfriend), and simply refers to the process of deconstruction and insight that good Zen meditation aims at.