I hate training with women.

[travelsbyknight]

I purposely put a loaded title up so that people would take notice.

Here's what I really mean.

I used to believe that men and women could both become profficient in the martial arts. MAybe I was naive or too idealistic. Now that a few years have passed I'm starting to see that almost no women have become profficient.

I find it frustrating to train with the women in my school. They inherently have what most men don't, the most important aspect of kung fu...they're soft. They bend instead of break. They redirect instead of staying planted and getting knocked over. They're not over tense like men. Here's the issue. They don't seem to get past this soft aspect of things. You need the soft and the hard but women seem to lack the hard. They bend against force but then they don't hit back like a whip. They just bend and get pushed over.

I'm not sure if I"m explaining this in a way people can understand. I train with this one girl who literally weighs nothing. She's the size of a child...accept she's an adult. I don't feel I get any benefit from training with her. I get benefit from teaching her but not from training her.

Can women be trained the same way as men? If not then how should women be trained in kung fu?

[Royal Dragon]

You need to go spend some time in a women's gymnastics club......

[Chief Fox]

Originally Posted by Royal Dragon

You need to go spend some time in a women's gymnastics club......

That or a strip club.

Seriously, over the past 4 years I've trained with several women but only two could give as well as they got. One was very aggressive and had an excellent round house kick. The other was more like you describe. She's very soft, flexible and quick. She's uses all of this to her advantage. When her and I spar, I know that I could rush in and over power her so I try to fight her with more quickness and flexibility. It's almost like she focuses on groin shots. She's an excellent martial artist who really likes to focus on application.

I certaily understand where you're coming from though. Most women simply aren't as aggresive as men. I would suggest focusing on a different part of your game when training women.

[Vajramusti]

Depends on what you have been exposed to. Among my elder brothers and sisters was Nancy Macdonald. She taught well and packed quite a punch. Among my younger sisters is Carina who doesnt just deflect.
Of course anyone-men and women will analyse their strengths and weaknesses.
Carina BTW makes very good wing chun dummies, wooden bot jam do-s, taichi wooden swords and other martial equipment. Her equipment site is at
www.little-raven.com

joy chaudhuri

[joedoe]

Some people get it, some people don't. It doesn't matter if they are male or female. You gotta learn how to adapt the style you are learning to yourself, and then to the situation. That applies regardless of your sex.

[Average Joe]

I have trained with many women. The first person that I ever worked out in Wing Chun was a woman we did Pak for 2 hours. All I can say is that not only was my arm killing me where she was hitting me but my hand was also killing me from trying so hard to deliver the same effort that she was giving me. Look at it this way most women are soft and in the real world they are the most voulnerible to attack rape mugging etc. So if you are working with a woman it should be that much more important to be a good bad guy. The guy on the street won't be nice. If the women you work with are soft it is most likely because the men they train with are treating them that way.

[BoulderDawg]

The truth is that most women don't have the upper body strenght of a man therefore they have to make up in other areas such as speed and agility.

Because of the strenght I think men advance sooner than women but they can catch up.

[BM2]

You don't think others may wish that they had a better partner than you? You are supposed to be helping getting your partner better.
My bjj instructor told me that he had no problem having my sons, age 7 and 9, in the adult's class. He puts them across from adults during the conditioning and tells the adults to keep up with the kids, they can not. My boys can do push ups,sit ups, mountain climbers and get up faster than any of the adults. He knows the adults push themselves harder not to be beaten by a little kid. They just don't wear out as any parent knows.
You remind me of a guy that will be fighing in a cage in three months. He reluctanly agreed to roll with me when asked by the instructor. I am much smaller than he and am 45. I gullotined his azz

[BoulderDawg]

fighting in a cage???

Now I'm confused. Are we talking about the WWE here!

[PlumDragon]

Originally Posted by BoulderDawg

The truth is that most women don't have the upper body strenght of a man therefore they have to make up in other areas such as speed and agility.

Because of the strenght I think men advance sooner than women but they can catch up.

Being a good martial artist isnt about having "upper body strength".

Women seem to have a more natural feeling hand and are great with finesse where many guys seem to think that its all about how much you can bench and forget entirely about whole body connectedness and the importance of structure, not strength.

As a quick case study, I train with one women who routinely whups the guys, stand up and on the ground.

[neilhytholt]

Women's strengths in martial arts are different. They have a lot of lower body strength, great flexibility, usually better balance, and they are great with intricate and flowing movements.

So instead of training them with light weapons and working on their kicking and groundfighting skill, most instructors teach them to fight like a man, which is just stupid.

Basically women have almost no upper body strength, but still have fairly strong legs and good hips, so they have a lower center of gravity, which can work to their advantage if they know how to use it. But most guys don't understand that, and can't teach them how to use it.

Oh, well.

[scholar]

Originally Posted by Royal Dragon

You need to go spend some time in a women's gymnastics club......

I would like to spend some time in a women's gymnastics club!!!

[neilhytholt]

Anyways, my first sifu's daughter was great at light weapons, so whenever I want to practice light weapons (like Jian), I just find the best woman in the school.

Believe it or not, the women are usually better than guys at that type of stuff. Guys usually try to muscle it and so they're much slower. Not always, of course, but as a generalization.

Edit ... anyways as soon as my daughter finishes up with this animal stuff (she's got the first form down), I'm going to start her on staff (just cause I think that should be taught first). Then, onto the jian and then onto the needles.

That way, alls she has to do to protect herself is carry a nice hair comb or needles in her hair, and she'll be able to fend off rapists.

[The Willow Sword]

You will rarely ever find a martial arts kwoon or dojo that really teaches women well. In fact most of the places i have been to over the years i have seen this lack of real training for women.
The only place that seems to have any credability for teaching women the correct way to defend themselves is the Sun dragon women's martial arts school here in Austin Tx. Every where else seems to take it easy on women. There was a similar thread to this one a while back where i was labelled some sort of sexist because i was pointing out the flaws of how women are trained in this country and how men are physically stronger than women.

Women are attacked very differently from men and they need to be trained for the very serious real world threat of being raped or attacked from behind and such. only a few places really get tough with women in martial arts training and i will bet you that most women who get hit the first time in class, quit that very night and dont come back.

Maybe some of the women here on the forum could chime in with their experiences and maybe they could be HONEST in telling us if they truly feel like what they are learning is going to save their life should they be threatened or sexually assaulted.
i mean really is that kata going to thwart some guy who is hell bent on getting your pants down and brutally raping you as you tried to open your car door?
How about that mantis form or that choy li fut routine or whatever the bone head is showing you that week? do you think that it is helping you gals?

I think this is a good topic. Lets read from the women here.

Peace,TWS

[neilhytholt]

Going hard on women is a starter, but it's not really going to help them because they don't have the upper body strength anyway.

IMHO you have to train them a totally different way.