Morals, Ethics, Philosophy and CMA

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I am curious about the various perspectives regarding morals or ethics or philosophy as part of someone's training in Chinese Martial Arts.. I have seen more than a few posts where these subjects are discarded in favor of pure fighting disciplines.. others seem to find benefits from these aspects of training..

So, i ask..how do those of you wishing to respond feel about including moral or ethical or philosophical lessons in your training.. i do not intend to imply "religion" as any aspect of the question.. these issues are independent of religion for the purposes of this inquiry.. Also, those not involved in CMA/TCMA have little reason to derail this thread, your opinions are respected but not requested.. the question is specific to Chinese systems.. and, please leave the definition of "Chinese" on the other thread, i am interested in the perspectives of those that have trained in systems generally considered to be of Chinese origin..

Thanks, and.. Be well....

[lkfmdc]

I'm curious why people think "morals" and "ethics" are part of TCMA training?

To me, this is a modern addition, part of a politically correct movement to clean up the martial arts and make them "friendly" to consumers...

I've trained with many respected and well known sifu (Chan Tai San, Jeng Hsin Ping, Wong Ching, YC Wong, Adam Hsu, Yeung Au-Ping, Tai Yim) and found this "feel good" philosophy totally absent

I don't want to say which school, but one school has the Chinese characters for it's tradition's rules posted on the wall. It's in all Chinese and they say it's the "morality" of the system, but it actually says stuff like "don't use your kung fu to rape, steal cattle, etc" NO , I am NOT joking... it is more like "please don't cause sifu pain by doing ilegal crap"...

Martial Arts isn't religion. It isn't philosophy. Aloing the way you may make friends, feel better about yourself, etc etc... but martial arts, especially TCMA were about fighting, more specifically, how to survive in a pretty cruel world with no law and no morals....

I just don't get those who want to turn it into channel five feel good theatre

[PangQuan]

As far as morals and ethics in my TCMA, none is pushed or taught by sifu. Though he was raised in the temple and lived as a monk, it is deffinately part of his training, and is still a very strong part of his life. He will always be buddhist monk.

For myself, this aspect was with me before I began my martial adventure. Even had I never found martial art this still would have been part of my personal cultivation.

As far as martial art in the past. Many times the people who practice are religious, or of higher social class. With both of these class there is a standard of behavior, ethical cultivation was a large part in the creation of this behavioral pattern.

Using ethical and moral conditioning along with enfusing one with deadly martial art skill, will be more likely that they will use thier skill correctly in regards to making morally correct decisions that are in tune with using martial art.

[PangQuan]

an interesting quote comes to mind.

this is made in reference to a list of tradional meditation through zen buddhism.

one view is marvelous function.

the quote:

For realization to be authentic, one must be able to apply it in the actual world. True understanding is reflected in one's technique and also in one's daily life. This is the real battlefield where one's enlightenment is constantly tested.


This follows along the belief that the morality of an individual will determine the level at which their personal martial art will reach.

An evil man will only go so far, yet a man whose morality is in tune with nature and the cosmos has no boundary or limit to thier marial art level.

If one is calm, undisturbed, and unagitated, things can be seen in their true light, and this leads to the development of natural wisdom.

[Samurai Jack]

Well, the "CMA isn't about ethics" crowd certainly explains some of the behavior displayed around here, LOL. But really, I'm pretty sure the monks at Shaolin had some serious ethical training. Of course not all CMA's truly have a link to Buddhist and Taoist monastic traditions. Ah well, tradition means different things to different people. In my experience, most modern JMA put heavy emphasis on ethics. My CMA teachers, not so much. To imply that there isn't merit in attaching a code of ethics to a martial tradition, or outright denying that it existed in ancient times trivializes a very vital and valid approach to Kung Fu training. It also denies the reality of how many systems have been taught for years. Too bad really. To each his own. I'm glad that there is more than one way to skin the martial cat.

[lkfmdc]

Originally Posted by Samurai Jack

I'm pretty sure the monks at Shaolin had some serious ethical training.

Would those be the monks who joined the monastery to escape prosecution for the crimes they committed on the outside world? (like murder)?

Or the monks who were in fact laymen who just shaved their heads and hid inside the monastery while they planned to overthrow the government?

Monks in China weren't the saints people think they were....

[lkfmdc]

Originally Posted by cjurakpt

like "loyalty to your country" (when I asked what country this referred to, I was given a quizzical look, and the one word answer "China", with the intonation that suggested surprise that I could think anything other than that...);

Funny, but we know that did not happen

That's because we know the only country you had loyalty at that time was Puerto Rico

[lkfmdc]

the China part!!!!!!!!!

[PangQuan]

sitting here thinking about this.

putting in to a larger scale.

In history, when has a force of ill moral character, who is using martial action to take, gone so far as to NOT having been defeated by a force of greater good?

surely there are many cases of one evil man taking and not being dropped there, but what of the larger scale such as invasions and stuff.

it would be need to see a percentile. i know its not possible but it would be coo.

[mantis108]

First and foremost, morals and ethics are relative and imperminant.

I believe today in CMA there is a problem of suedo-religiousim and proliferation of code of conducts that do nothing more than controling the minds and hearts of it practitioners.

Personally, I can not for the life of me understand why people would believe the so called Shaolin monks these days are more powerful because they "are" Buddhists. I honestly don't see them being anywhere near practicing Buddhism other than using it as a marketing point. The fact that someone has Buddhist or Daoist believe doesn't in anyway, form or shape empower him/her by default. That's the suedo-religiousim that I mentioned. I don't understand why people look to them as their "masters". As far as I am concern, these "masters" are just career people dressed in Buddhist monks habits that's all. They are in no way holy men whatsoever. The physcial feast that they can do are no more real than any other street or circus performers.

I believe it is important to have discipline in order to become good at anything. What is more important is to become a better person IMHO. No one needs to learn or to practice to fight. Anyone can go and fight if he wishes so. In a way, when a figther desires to learn or practice fighting, it is in fact his way of saying he wants to apply himself in a better way (to increase his chances of winning, etc). He is in fact saying he wants to better himself. This already distinguished him from a brawler (senseless violence lover) not to mention if the said fighter chooses the time, the venue and the format to fight. He is willing to accept and welcome discipline in order to better himself. Now we could argue about his goal to win but we can not deny that his intent to be a better person albeit its limiting scope.

We should not confuse discipline with code of conducts which could be arbitrary. In Hindu traditions, Yama (the 5 disciplines) are meant to be tools of self restrain or abstinence in order to focus on the "learning" and training which is through out life. For example, do not drink alcohol or stay away from "recreational" use of drugs is in fact important for training to fight or even for athletics for that matter. We know that there are harmful effects on our mind-body continuum with "suppliments" (ie steroid) if we do not pay attention to the use of those. Also do not lie is important in the sense that a fighter must be honest to himself and to others to guage his own abilities against others and in turn that honesty will inspire others to respect the fighter's abilities. Unfortunately, Chinese elaborated on the Yama with some Confucius ethical values. This unnecessarily complicated things.

Philosophy is the guiding principle of how we view the reality (the ecology of space-time continuum and mind-body continuum) and how we interact with it. In layman's term whether you decided to fight or flight and you fight "clean" or you fight "dirty" that's no doubt determined by your "philosophy" which simply means how you thing of your chance of survival.

Just some thoughts for this very interesting topic.

Mantis108

[lkfmdc]

Those 10 things by the way I got from Moo Duk Kwan (ie Korean martial art), at the time I thought "well, all the really cool schools have stuff like this" but I've subsequently said "f it all"

Regardless, it is important to point out that the concept and the 10 came from a non Chinese martial art, specifically Korean. If any tradition DOES have a moral sort of backing, it is Korean martial arts.... but that is another post entirely

[TenTigers]

I remember learning the creed when I studied Moo Duk Kwan and found it weird as you see this sudden shift..
"Honor your parents"
"Respect you Elders"
"Always finish what you start"
"Never Retreat in Battle"
"Be discreet in Killing"

don't remember all of them but those stood out in my mind.
(never showed them to Mom n Dad either)

[Xiao3 Meng4]

This is just stuff I've noticed.

Buddhist Martial Arts generally have a code of conduct or a set of rules. Yip Man Wing Chun has a Code of Conduct. The Ving Tsun Museum has it archived here:
http://home.vtmuseum.org/genealogy/y...of_conduct.php

Its rules reflect not only buddhist but confucian ideals.

Morihei Ueshiba taught an ethical system within his Aikido. I suspect it was influenced by Buddhism, Confucianism, and whatever Samurai ethics he had. It can be found in the book "The Dynamic Sphere." It's essentially a spectrum of moral warrior behaviour, from least moral to most moral:

1. The warrior is provoked and kills his opponent.
2. The warrior provokes his opponent into attacking, then kills him.
3. The warrior is attacked without provocation; the opponent is killed.
4. The warrior is attacked without provocation; at the end of the confrontation, both participants walk away unharmed.


Taoist Martial Arts work off of a different Ethical System. The primary goal of Taoist Martial Arts is to develop the individual's natural survival skills, including balance and conservation of energy. Anything beyond that is about choice, however the more wholitiscally balanced a person is, the more objectively they are able to assess their options.

What about other arts? How About Xin Yi or Sumo? Muay Thai or Kali?


Personally, I think it's important for instructors to realize their ethical responsiblities, especially if they're going to preach ethics, respect, and honour in class. The more emphasis an instructor places on those items, the more paternal or maternal a role that instructor is likely to take with students, becoming like a father or mother figure, a master to whom all loyalty and respect must be offered. This tends to breed a) a HUGE ego in the instructors, and b) a HUGE expectation of the instructor within the students. Of course, instructors are simply human, and often make mistakes - after all, instructors are still students, too. However, the greater the moral an ethical expectations, the greater the dissapointment in students when the instructor breaches one of those morals or ethical boundaries. I know of a few incidents where schools taught very formal codes of respect and honour, frowned on grass, etc... next thing you know, one of the students catches the instructor (in some cases, married) boinking one of the other students at a tournament (or after class, or before class). Guess what this eventually does to the instructor and his/her school.


CSP

[lkfmdc]

Originally Posted by cjurakpt

some might argue that MDK / Tang Soo Do were more Chinese than Korean anyway...

The ideas expressed in those 10 "rules" are distinctly Korean, and as "peculiar" to Korean thinking as Ten Tigers suggested. Currently being related to Koreans, I must say they are quite different than Chinese, with very unique values and world views... in fact, I've come to understand my sabanim and Korean martial arts training much more over the last few years as a result... but that is another thread entirely

[Samurai Jack]

Originally Posted by lkfmdc

Would those be the monks who joined the monastery to escape prosecution for the crimes they committed on the outside world? (like murder)?

Or the monks who were in fact laymen who just shaved their heads and hid inside the monastery while they planned to overthrow the government?

Monks in China weren't the saints people think they were....

Nah. I mean the monks who joined the monastery to be Buddhist monks. Sort of absurd to jump out and assume that because some Buddhist temples have harbored criminals and revolutionaries, that all monks were criminals and revolutionaries. In fact, it's also absurd to assume that even if that were the case, the men and women who became monks didn't follow a code of ethics. Buddhism is by definition a religion that if founded on a code of ethics i.e. the four noble truths, the eightfold path, the bodhisattva vows, the ten grave precepts, and on, and on, and on. Kung Fu isn't the only thing that came out of Shaolin. An entire culture of Buddhist thought did as well. Surely you are aware of this?