What do you think is better and why?

[YongChun]

Training program 1: Artist Program

Warm ups
Little Idea Form
Hitting the sand bag
Single sticking hands
Lap sau
Rolling hands
Chum Kiu Form
Stepping while punching
Entry Drills
Freestyle Chi sau
Free style distance fighting (closing to chi sau to the ground)
Butterfly knife training
Fighting Butterfly knife vs the Pole or spear
Wooden Dummy training

Training program 2: Fighter Program

Push ups, sit-ups, jogging, weights
Shadow boxing
Punching and kicking the heavy bag
Hitting the speed bag
Do twelve 3 minute rounds of hitting the hand held pads
Get in a ring and spar with a few opponents who are better than yourself
On alternate days train grappling against superior opponents
Do competitive grappling
Once a week train on stick and knife fighting
Regularly train freestyle stick and knife fighting for quick reaction time

Training Program 3: A blend of both.

[anerlich]

Depends whether you want to be artist, fighter or both.

I'd lean towards option 3.

You left out option 4, RBSD guy, but I'm more interested in the others anyway.

[KPM]

I think another consideration is whether you want to be a hobbyist or an athlete. Any other physical endeavor requires some amount of actual dedicated conditioning. Why should a martial art be any different? There is an "eastern" ideal of the "martial scholar" that seems to be emphasized in the traditional CMA's. But the "western" ideal of a "combat athlete" may better serve for a true "fighting" method. So I guess I'm saying I would lean towards option 3 like anerlich.

Keith

[lawrenceofidaho]

Cool post so far, guys........

Andrew, what do you think a "Reality Based Self Defense" list might look like?

(Maybe there should be two lists for each training program; a recommended one, and an example of a flawed one........)

-L

[IRONMONK]

Originally Posted by lawrenceofidaho

Cool post so far, guys........

Andrew, what do you think a "Reality Based Self Defense" list might look like?

-L

i think multiple opponents,weapons defense, premptive striking from fence and role play(e.g geoff thompson stuff) etc

[lawrenceofidaho]

Originally Posted by YongChun

Training program 1: Artist Program
Training program 2: Fighter Program

I've got to wonder how successfully a school could operate offering both programs.

Much of WC, and many other traditional arts, are taught like your described "Artist Program", -yet market themselves as preparing the student for combat. (Essentially selling the student the belief that he can fight well.) But if you've got a "Fighter Program" going on in the same school, the artist guys will eventually have enough exposure to see that the fighters are getting tough & skilled, while their own functional improvement is quite limited. The illusion would be dispelled, and then the "Artist Students" would be faced with the choice of staying with their current program, (which they can now see is not able to offer them great results with regards to fighting), -or turn things up a notch, and enter the "Fighter Program" (which might be discouraging to some because it's not only a lot more work, but also challenging to the ego.)

My sense of it is, many of those folks would quit.......

[anerlich]

I think this happens at more than a few schools anyway. You'll always get more people interested in fitness and defense, and perhaps artistic sensibilities (though that normally comes later) than you will in hardcore competition. This is the case even in boxing gyms. The non-hardcore people pay most of the bills.

One of our branches got heavily into competition, entering people in MMA, kickboxing, BJJ, etc. and the change in attitude resulted in attendance dropping.

Even the SBG has competition programs and classes for people who just want to learn the various arts.

I knew a guy who did Kyokushin a decade or so ago, before Sosai Oyama's death and the split. In that org they'd have a bunch of regular schools, and maybe one school in the city where the really hardcore competitive guys went to beat each other up, probably partly financed by the others.

A bit of a challenge to come up with a workable business model, but it has been done.

[wei wu wei]

no fixed approach.

less is better than more.

one should analyse individual weaknesses and train accordingly.

goal setting is crucial.

[Matrix]

WWW,
How do you reconcile "no fixed approach" with "goal setting is crucial"?
You can have a "fixed" approach that has enough flexibility in it to allow for adjustments to the individual needs. I'm making a distinction between 'fixed' and 'rigid'.
I think a broadbased fixed approach is a good idea. It can provide clear milestones for progression. Or am I missing something??

[lawrenceofidaho]

Originally Posted by Matrix

WWW,
How do you reconcile "no fixed approach" with "goal setting is crucial"?

It's a Taoist thing.......

Originally Posted by Matrix

You can have a "fixed" approach that has enough flexibility in it to allow for adjustments to the individual needs. I'm making a distinction between 'fixed' and 'rigid'. I think a broadbased fixed approach is a good idea. It can provide clear milestones for progression. Or am I missing something??

Well said, Bill.

-L

[wei wu wei]

Before I instigate a Taoist Rebellion, I should clarify.

No fixed approach means "one should not adopt a fixed approach to one's learning."

Instead, one should be flexible.

However, too much flexibility can prove deadly to progress, which is precisely why goal setting is necessary. One should have an idea of what they want to achieve on a day-to-day basis as well as, for instance, how skillfull they want to be a year down the line.

Before one gets taught a particular model, you ask; which method is best suited to this person based on, for example;
his personality type,
the way he absorbs and processes information, so on and so forth.

You then choose the method which will provide the most appropriate outcome for the individual.

Ancient Taoist proverb;
Free your mind and your arse will follow. (lol)

[hen]

Whilst goal setting is good, it could have negative effects.

Sometimes, to reach the next level, you need to let go and open up your mind. Too much pressure to acheive may actually slow u down and stop u from acheiveing the goal!

Relax and flow.

Hen

[lawrenceofidaho]

Originally Posted by hen

Whilst goal setting is good, it could have negative effects.

Sometimes, to reach the next level, you need to let go and open up your mind. Too much pressure to acheive may actually slow u down and stop u from acheiveing the goal!

Relax and flow.

Hen

Nice post, Hen.......

I might also add to try and enjoy yourself.

-L

[hen]

Well absolutely!!!

Nicely added, lawrence. Enjoy and have fun......

Hen